Assalamu Alaikum sister Mairo,
Thank you for your response. You wrote the following in post #39:
Thank you for your post. Yes I am aware of that point of view as well, and I also agree with it. A very good example of what you are explaining was with the thread from DadManG the other day. There are certain Christian beliefs, such as the idea of the trinity or belief in Jesus as God incarnate which completely contradict Islam and constitute disbelief if a person has been warned with the words of the Quran and they continue on in their disbelief. But not all Christians believe in these concepts, there are some who are simply trying to live a good life following the model of Jesus.
In addition, I have difficulty when talking about religion with my father. He believes in God, but it is not based on scripture, it is based on his own ideas and feelings about God. This is also warned against in the Quran. Regardless of whether or not someone believes the Quran to be God's revelation when it is recited, I feel an obligation to repeat from the Quran and let the recipient of the verse respond to it or reject it. Just as the messenger of Allah's purpose was only to deliver the message, he would never have power over anyone to make them convert. For them is their religion, for us is ours. The judgement is all up to God, who will decide between all of our differences. It is not for any person to condemn another. Rather we should seek to be merciful and forgive, so that we may be shown the mercy of Allah.
I do not believe it is right to withold kindness from someone who disbelieves in God's messages or attack them in any way. The prophet demonstrated constantly how to be kind and merciful with everyone around him, even prisoners of war. I do not compromise my beliefs in Islam by being tolerant with those who differ or oppose Islam. When Islam became the predominant religion in Mecca, none of its inhabitants were forced to convert, everyone had the freedom to practice the religon of their choice in peace.
In post #37, I posted the following:
I sincerely advise Munawar, Sa'diyah and Mairo to read pages 2, 3 and 4 of the thread "Communicating with kaffir family".
Please read all of the 3 pages very carefully. I know my posts are very long, but if you read them carefully, you will -God willing- find the adequate response to points 2, 3 and 4 [That Allah the Almighty is the judge, who are we to judge and only He knows who will enter paradise]:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847&page=2
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847&page=3
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847&page=4
I don't mean to be rude, but if you had read my posts carefully [in the links I provided], you would have understood my point of view more clearly.
==========================
The main points in your argument are as follows:
1- You wrote that:
There are certain Christian beliefs, such as the idea of the trinity or belief in Jesus as God incarnate which completely contradict Islam and constitute disbelief if a person has been warned with the words of the Quran and they continue on in their disbelief. But not all Christians believe in these concepts, there are some who are simply trying to live a good life following the model of Jesus.
So, it seems that you believe that if one does not have a blasphemous belief about God Almighty [such as believing He is a Trinity, believing He was grieved by the wickedness of man, was sorry for creating him and believing the He rested on the seventh and was refreshed] and tries to live a good life and follow Jesus, then that is alright.
Am I correct in summarizing your point of view?
If I was correct in summarizing your view, then I'll have to disagree with you, sister Mairo.
Let us suppose that there is a Christian who believes that God Almighty is absolutely One [not a trinity] and that only He should be worshiped. This Christian also believes in:
- the Last Day and what it entails [i.e., Heaven and Hell],
- all the previous prophets [peace be upon them all]
- believes in the Angels
.....and basically believes in every fundamental pillar of belief except that this Christian does not believe that Muhammad [peace be upon him] was the Messenger of God. Or maybe this Christian does believe that, but he did not act upon that belief and did not revert to Islam.
In this case, sister Mairo, this Christian -
if he received the message of Islam in a clear and undistorted way and if he died in that state of disbelief- will enter Hell to abide therein forever.
Please read the following verses of the Qur'an:
And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 3:85]
Verily, those who disbelieve in Allâh and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allâh and His Messengers (by believing in Allâh and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, "We believe in some but reject others," and wish to adopt a way in between. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 4:150-151]
O mankind! Verily, there has come to you the Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) with the truth from your Lord. So believe in him, it is better for you. But if you disbelieve, then certainly to Allâh belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. And Allâh is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 4:170]
And whosoever does not believe in Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), then verily, We have prepared for the disbelievers a blazing Fire.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 48:13]
Two of the above four citations were mentioned in my post 16 on page 2 of the thread "Communicating with kaffir family"
I also posted the following on that post #16:
The Jews, Christians and other disbelievers who'll abide in Hell forever are the ones who the message of Islam has reached in a clear and undistorted way and then died as non Muslims.
For the disbelievers who have not known about Islam
in a clear and undistorted way, then they'll be tested on the Day of Judgment, and according to their performance in that test they will either enter Heaven or Hell.
This is a very important issue. Please click on the following links to read what I have posted on this matter:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=23244&postcount=21
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=30021&postcount=10
Source: post # 16 found in the following link:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847&page=2
---------------------------------
2- You wrote:
In addition, I have difficulty when talking about religion with my father. He believes in God, but it is not based on scripture, it is based on his own ideas and feelings about God. This is also warned against in the Quran. Regardless of whether or not someone believes the Quran to be God's revelation when it is recited, I feel an obligation to repeat from the Quran and let the recipient of the verse respond to it or reject it. Just as the messenger of Allah's purpose was only to deliver the message, he would never have power over anyone to make them convert. For them is their religion, for us is ours. * The judgement is all up to God, who will decide between all of our differences. It is not for any person to condemn another.
Up to the red astrix sign [
*] -which I have added- I agree with you. In fact, I don't remember writing anything contrary to that.
The rest of the paragraph I agree with
to a certain extent. If you meant that judging a certain individual [Mr. X or Mrs. Y] is up to God Almighty and we should not say that that certain individual will enter Heaven or Hell for sure, then I agree.
However, if you meant that we cannot talk
generally about a certain group, then I disagree. There's nothing wrong with saying "Anyone who does not convert to Islam -after receiving the message of Islam in a clear and undistorted way-, [whether he or she is a Jew, a Christian or any other religion] will enter Hell to abide therein forever".
Please read the following, taken from my post #18 found on page 2 of the thread "Communicating with kaffir family":
You also wrote the following:
Whom God accepts and will reward and whom He will punish is God's business and His alone. We should focus on our own faith, thoughts, words and deeds and hope and pray that we will be among those whom God accepts and rewards.
There's something that needs to be explained.
When I call Jews and Christians
Kuffaar [disbelievers] -and as such all disbelievers will enter Hell forever
if the message of Islam reaches them in a clear and undistorted way-, I am applying rule generally and
not to a certain specific individual.
I can say, "all non Muslims who die as non Muslim
after the message of Islam has reached them in a clear and undistorted way will abide in Hell forever."
That should
not be considered as me interfering in any way in God Almighty's decision [and it's His decision alone] to reward whom He wills and to punish whom He wills.
I am just repeating, in my own words, what God Almighty has already revealed, whether in His own words [i.e. the Qur'an] or through the words of His Messenger [peace be upon him].
However, when I start pointing the finger at a specific person and then say "Mr. X will enter Hell" or "Mrs. Y will enter Heaven", then that is a forbidden act to do, since these things are only known to -and are at the sole discretion of- Allah the Almighty.
If Mrs. Y is a Muslim, how can I know for certain that she won't leave Islam and die as a Kaafir [disbeliever]?
If Mr. X is a
Kaafir [disbeliever], how do I know that he will not die as a Muslim? And even if he died as a non Muslim, how do I know that the call to Islam has reached him in a clear and undistorted way as to make him responsible? Isn't there a chance that the call to Islam did not reach him in a clear and undistorted way? In this last case, isn't there a chance that this Mr. X might actually succeed in the test he must go through in the Day of Judgement and therefore end up in heaven?
The only time when any Muslim can say that a certain specified individual will enter Heaven or Hell is if there's a Qur'anic verse or an authentic sayings of the Prophet that states that.
For example, God Almighty said:
May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he. His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained. He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame. And his wife [as well] - the carrier of firewood. Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 111:1-5]
So, we can say with certainty that Abu Lahab [the Prophet's [peace be upon him] uncle] and his wife will enter Hell.
As for all individuals who's fate has not been mentioned specifically in the Qur'an or in an authentic saying of the Prophet [peace be upon him] -and that includes the vast majority of cases- then we Muslims cannot and must not say that a certain specified individual will enter heaven or hell.
What we should do is just hope and pray that Allah admits a person -who has outwardly died as a Muslim- to Heaven and forgive him his sins, and to refrain from supplicating for a person who has outwardly died as a
Kaafir [disbeliever].
Source: post #18 found in the following link:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847&page=2
-------------------------------------------------
3- You wrote:
Rather we should seek to be merciful and forgive, so that we may be shown the mercy of Allah.
I do not believe it is right to withold kindness from someone who disbelieves in God's messages or attack them in any way. The prophet demonstrated constantly how to be kind and merciful with everyone around him, even prisoners of war. I do not compromise my beliefs in Islam by being tolerant with those who differ or oppose Islam. When Islam became the predominant religion in Mecca, none of its inhabitants were forced to convert, everyone had the freedom to practice the religon of their choice in peace.
Please read the following, taken from my post #18 found on page 2 of the thread "Communicating with kaffir family":
Many Muslims do not know how to differentiate between being honest and just when dealing with non Muslims [
Kuffaar] and between knowing that they are
Kuffaar [disbelievers]. They think that if someone is a
Kaafir [disbeliever], then that automatically means I must harm him in any way possible.
That is a very big mistake.
God Almighty told us the difference in how to treat different types of
Kuffaar in the following verses of the Qur'an:
Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 60:8-9]
Source: post #18 post found in the following link:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847&page=2
As to how prisoners of war are to be treated in Islam, I have posted evidence that shows that Muslims actually can gain good deeds for feeding the prisoner of war, if they do it for the sake of Allah.
Please read what I wrote in on the following link:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=79502&postcount=9
Among the phrases you wrote in this last paragraph was, "I do not compromise my beliefs in Islam by being tolerant with those who differ or oppose Islam."
As to being tolerant to non Muslims who do not oppose Islam, I have already stated the above Qur'anic verse which says:
Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 60:8]
However, please remember the next verse also:
Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 60:9]
You should also reflect on what Allah has said in another verse of the Qur'an:
You (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) will not find any people who believe in Allâh and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rûh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens (Paradise) under which rivers flow to dwell therein (forever). Allâh is pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of Allâh. Verily, it is the Party of Allâh that will be the successful.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 58:22]
I have also posted the following in post #16 on page 2 of the thread "Communicating with kaffir family":
It is also very important to realise that just because a person is a disbeliever [
Kaafir] does not mean that his life and property can be violated. The following is part of an answer given by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid to question no. 26721:
8- The Muslims believe that it is not permissible, under any circumstances whatsoever, for a Muslim to mistreat a non-Muslim who is not hostile towards Islam; so the Muslim should not commit aggression against him, or frighten him, or terrorize him, or steal his wealth, or embezzle him, or deprive him of his rights, or deny him his trust, or deny him his wages, or withhold from him the price of his goods when buying from him or withhold the profits of a partnership if he is in a business partnership with him.
9- The Muslims believe that it is obligatory upon the Muslims to honour treaties or agreements made with a non-Muslim party. If a Muslim has agreed to their conditions when seeking permission to enter their country (i.e., a visa) and has promised to adhere to that, then it is not permissible for him to commit mischief in their land, to betray anyone, to steal, to kill or to do any destructive action, and so on.
Source:
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=26721&ln=eng
Source: post #16 post found in the following link:
http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847&page=2
This is one of the most important matters that Muslims should really strive to learn and understand completely. Muslims have to learn that not loving disbelievers does
not mean that their rights should be violated.
Allah the Almighty has taught us what the prophet Abraham [peace be upon him] has said:
Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrâhîm (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allâh: we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you hostility and hatred for ever until you believe in Allâh Alone" - except the saying of Ibrâhîm (Abraham) to his father: "Verily, I will ask forgiveness (from Allâh) for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allâh.[2]" Our Lord! In You (Alone) we put our trust, and to You (Alone) we turn in repentance, and to You (Alone) is (our) final Return.
-----------------------------------------
[2] (V.60:4) See the Qur’ân Verses (V.9:114), (V.19:41-49) and (V.26:70-86)
[The translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 60:4 and footnote [
2] are from the website of the King Fahd Complex for the Printing of the Holy Qur'an]
Source:
http://qurancomplex.org/Quran/Targama/Targama.asp?nSora=60&l=eng&nAya=1#60_1
At the same time, Allah has also said:
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allâh as just witnesses; and let not the enmity and hatred of others make you avoid justice. Be just: that is nearer to piety; and fear Allâh. Verily, Allâh is Well-Acquainted with what you do.
[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 5:8]
Sheikh Abdur Rahmaan ibn Naasir As-Sa'di [may Allah have mercy on him] has written the following in explaining the above verse [in Arabic]:
( وَلا يَجْرِمَنَّكُمْ ) أي: يحملنكم بغض ( قَوْمٍ عَلَى أَلا تَعْدِلُوا ) كما يفعله من لا عدل عنده ولا قسط، بل كما تشهدون لوليكم، فاشهدوا عليه، وكما تشهدون على عدوكم فاشهدوا له، ولو كان كافرا أو مبتدعا، فإنه يجب العدل فيه، وقبول ما يأتي به من الحق، لأنه حق لا لأنه قاله، ولا يرد الحق لأجل قوله، فإن هذا ظلم للحق.
Source:
http://qurancomplex.org/Quran/tafseer/Tafseer.asp?l=arb&t=saady&nSora=5&nAya=8#5_8
My translation of what he wrote is as follows. I have added the words between square brackets [ ] in order to facilitate a better translation:
(And let not) meaning: the hatred of (others make you avoid justice) just like one who has no justice and no equity does. Instead, just like you testify in favour of your friend/ally, also testify against him, and just like you testify against your enemy, also testify for him even if he was a Kaafir [disbeliever] or an innovator. Because it is obligatory to show justice to him [i.e. the Kaafir -disbeliever- or the innovator] and to accept what he brings forward of the truth, because it is true and not because he said it. And truth must not be rejected because he [i.e., the Kaafir [disbeliever] or innovator] said it, since that is an injustice against the truth.
====================================
In post 73, you posted the following:
Yes, I do not ever mention any quotes but the Quran and Hadith in my posts, that is what I was trying to explain.
As I am sure you are aware, it is lawful for a Muslim man to marry a believer among the People of the Book - aka Jews or Christians. I would find it hard to believe that a man can be allowed to marry such a woman, and not show her love?
That's an excellent question. I hope I may be able to answer some time in the future.
Regards,
Bluegazer
Wassalamu Alaikum