Discussion on Deobandis

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
You are so wrong. You must be nuts to be comparing sufism to hinduism. Little knowledge is such a dangerous thing. Shooting off your mouth when you dont know anything is unpardonable.
I accept that there are lots of fake shaikhs out there that give sufism a bad name. The biggest sufi saint of india is Hazrat Moinuddin Chisti. What will you call him ? A hindu ? Deviant muslim ?

The main aim of sufism is purification of soul.
GO THROUGH THE LINKS I HAVE PROVIDED. LISTEN TO THE BAYANS. You are so much in need of it.
May Allah pardon you for your absurd claims.

Sorry, but brother you are quite polite. I did say that it was just hypothetical thinking on my part. But there's a lot of bidah in sufism. The dervishes and the dancing and swaying and doing tawafs of graves. The ascetic attitude towards the dunya. What's your standpoint regarding all this?

And please can you kindly provide some Islamic daleel that doing wasilah is allowed and the way of the Sahaba?

By the way, I'm a *sister*.
 

Tabassum07

Smile for Allah
:salam2:

Here's some info on Sufism from IslamQA: http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/47431/sufi

Is the “Da’wah and Tableegh” group one of the misguided groups? And what about Sufism?.


Praise be to Allaah.

It is important for us to understand, firstly, that the words “Tasawwuf” and “Sufism” are modern terms which refer to something that is not automatically approved of in sharee’ah as the words eemaan (faith), Islam and ihsaan are. Neither is it automatically condemned like the words kufr, fusooq (immorality) and ‘asyaan (disobedience, sin).

In such cases, we need to find out more about what is meant by such words before we can pass comment. Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The words al-faqr and al-tasawwuf (i.e., Sufism) may include some things that are loved by Allaah and His Messenger, and these are things that are enjoined even if they are called faqr or tasawwuf, because the Qur’aan and Sunnah indicate that they are mustahabb and that is not altered if they called by other names. That also includes actions of the heart such as repentance and patience. And it may include things that are hated by Allaah and His Messenger, such as some kinds of belief in incarnation and pantheism, or monasticism that has been innovated in Islam, or things that go against sharee’ah and have been innovated, and so on. These things are forbidden no matter what names they are given… And it may include limiting oneself to a certain style of clothing or certain customs, ways of speaking and behaving, in such a way that anyone who goes beyond it is regarded as an outsider, although this is not something that has been stipulated in the Qur’aan or Sunnah; rather it may be something that is permissible or it may be something that is makrooh, and this is a bid’ah that is forbidden. This is not the way of the friends of Allaah (awliya’ Allaah); such things are innovations and misguidance that exists among those who claim to follow the Sufi path. Similarly, among those who claim to be servants of knowledge there are innovations that involve beliefs and words that go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah, using phrases and terminology that have no basis in sharee’ah. Many such things happen among those people.

The wise believer agrees with all people in that in which they are in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah and obey Allaah and His Messenger, but he does not agree with that in which they go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah and disobey Allaah and His Messenger. He accepts from every group that which was taught by the Messenger… when a person seeks the truth and justice, based on knowledge, he is one of the successful friends of Allaah and His victorious party…

Al-Fataawa, 11/280-290.

But what Shaykh al-Islam said about the view of Sufis depending on their situation is almost too theoretical for our times, when the objectionable matters that he referred to have become part of the path of those who call themselves Sufis nowadays, in addition to the different occasions they celebrate such as the Mawlid, and their exaggeration about their living shaykhs, and their attachment to shrines and graves, where they pray and circumambulate the graves and make vows to them, and other well-known practices of theirs. Because of these matters, the correct approach now is to warn against them with no reservations. This is what was agreed upon by the Standing Committee in their answer to a question about the ruling on the Sufi tareeqahs that exist nowadays. They said:

Usually those that are called Sufis nowadays follow bid’ahs (innovations) that constitute shirk, as well as other kinds of bid’ah, such as when some of them say “Madad ya sayyid (Help, O Master)”, and call upon the qutubs (“holy men”), and recite dhikr in unison using names by Allaah has not called Himself, like saying “Huw, Huw (He, He)” and “Ah, Ah (a contraction of the word ‘Allaah’)”. Whoever reads their books will be aware of many of their innovations that constitute shirk, and other evils.

With regard to the Jamaa’at al-Tableegh, this is one of the groups that is active in the field of da’wah, calling people to Allaah. They do a great deal of good and make commendable efforts. How many sinners have repented at their hands, and how many have now become devoted to worship of Allaah. But this group is not free of some innovations in knowledge and action, to which the scholars have drawn attention. But whatever the case they cannot be described as being one of the misguided groups. We have quoted above the words of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah: The wise believer agrees with all people in that in which they are in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah and obey Allaah and His Messenger, but he does not agree with that in which they go against the Qur’aan and Sunnah. For more information on this group, see the answer to questions no. 8674 and 39349.
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
But there's a lot of bidah in sufism. The dervishes and the dancing and swaying and doing tawafs of graves. The ascetic attitude towards the dunya. What's your standpoint regarding all this?

This is true. There is lots of bidah and fake shaikhs today. They give sufism a bad name. You know that there are lots of bidah in islam as well. So does that make islam wrong ??
Seriously people, I am giving you all the links to know the truth and differentiate between right and wrong. Didnt you read any ??

By the way, you have not answered my question yet. I'm here to learn about Deobandis.
i have provided the link..
http://www.central-mosque.com/biographies/
http://www.haqislam.org/maulana-rashid-ahmad-gangohi/
http://www.darululoom-deoband.com
By the way, I'm a *sister*.
I know. i have addressed you as such.
sister, read this completely and only than reply. http://www.khanqah.org/books/show/reality-of-tasawwuf
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Please understand that i am a regular muslim and not an aalim. I try to answer your questions with only pure intentions but the ulemas will be able to give you indepth rulings.
Maulana Hakeem Mohammad Akhtar d.b is one of the biggest living sufi today. READ HIS BOOKS AND LISTEN TO HIS BAYAANS. whatever you all are asking will be very precisely answered there.
Will any of you READ HIS BOOKS AND LISTEN TO HIS BAYAANS and than reply ??
 

azad.ahmed

Junior Member
taken from www.daruliftaa.org


TAWASSUL


Question:

Assalamu Alaykum Warahmatullah,

This question is about 'Tawassul'. Clearly, the sect of the Salafis state that it is shirk to do this act of worship and it breaks the Aqeedah of tawheed, even the people of the city of Saudi Arabia have dislike in this, and this Aqeedah has even been adopted by the Imams and Khateebs of the Harmain (two sacred Harams). Please give your words of wisdom on this controversial issue.


Wassalmu Alaykum



Answer:


In the Name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,



Tawassul (using intermediaries in supplication to Allah) through the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace), Awliya and righteous believers is permitted, rather recommended according to the four schools of Sunni Islam.



This has been the mainstream belief held by scholars of this Ummah throughout the eras. The Salaf (predecessors) from the earliest generations had this understanding and this has been the way of the four Sunni Madhhabs in Fiqh.



The meaning of Tawassul is:

To ask Allah Almighty through the medium and intercession of another person. For example, one says: O Allah! I ask forgiveness for my sins through the Wasila (intercession) of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam).



Tawassul can be carried out through one's own righteous deeds, the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace), righteous people who have passed away and those who are still alive. All these types of Tawassul are permitted and acceptable.




The permissibility of ‘Tawassul’ is proven from the Qur'an, Sunnah, continued practice of the Ummah and reason.



Some of the proofs on the validity of Tawassul:



1) Allah Most High says:



“O you who believe! Fear Allah and seek a means (wasila) to him”

(Surah al-Ma'ida, V: 35)



The word “Wasila” (a means of approach) in its general indication includes tawassul (intercession) by persons, and through actions.



2) Allah Almighty says:



“If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you (Prophet Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) and asked Allah's forgiveness and the Messenger of Allah had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed forgiving and Most Merciful”.

(Surah al-Nisa, V: 64)



These two verses are clear in the permissibility and recommendation of Tawassul. The distinction made by some, between the living and the dead in this matter only comes from one who believes in the perishing of souls upon death, which would lead to denying resurrection.


Also, when one uses Tawassul in supplication, one does not ask and seek from other than Allah. Only the high position, status and rank of the person through whom Wasila is carried out is used as intercession. In other words, the servant is saying: O Allah! This certain Prophet or servant of yours is very close to you. I do not possess any good deeds, but I have love for the pious. O Allah! Pardon me and forgive my sins due to this love and connection I have with this pious servant of yours.




Now, every person with a sound mind will determine the fact that there is no reason to distinguish and differentiate between the living and the dead. This is the reason why scholars such as Imam Subki, Hafidh Ibn Kathir, Imam an-Nawawi and many others have declared the permissibility of Tawassul through the righteous, whether alive or passed away to the Mercy of Allah.



3) Imam al-Tirmidhi (Allah have Mercy on him) and others relate from Uthman ibn Hunaif (Allah be pleased with him):



“A blind man came to the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him

peace) and said : “I've been afflicted in my eyesight, so pray to

Allah for me".

The Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Go perform

ablution (Wudu), perform two rak'at Salat and then say : “O

Allah!, I ask you and turn to you through my Prophet Muhammad,

the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad !, I seek your intercession

with my lord for the return of my eyesight, that it may be fulfilled.

O Allah!, grant him intercession for me ". The Prophet (Sallallahu

Alayhi Wasallam) said: “and if there is some need, do the same”.

(Recorded by Tirmidhi, Abu Dawud, Nasa'i, Tabarani and others,

with a sound chain of narrators).



The express content of this Hadith proves the legal validity of Tawassul through a living person. It implicitly proves the validity of Tawassul through a deceased person, as Tawassul through a living or dead person is not through a physical body or through life or death, rather, through the positive meaning attached to the person in both life and death.



4) Moreover, Tabrani relates in his ' Mu'jam al-Kabir ' reporting from the same Uthman ibn Hunaif that a person repeatedly visited him concerning something he needed, but Uthman paid no attention to him. The man met his son and complained to him about the matter- this was after the death of the Prophet (Allah bless him & give him peace) and after the caliphates of Abu Bakr and Umar (Allah be pleased with them)- so Uthman (who collected Hadith and was from the learned) said : “Go to the place of Wudu, then come to the Masjid, perform two Rak'ats and then say : “O Allah!, I ask you and turn to you through our Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad! I turn through you to my lord, that He fulfill my need”....... until the end of the Hadith.



This is an explicit and clear text from a Companion proving the legal validity of Tawassul through the dead. The Hadith has been classed as authentic (Sahih) by al-Bayhaqi, Mundhiri, al-Haythami and many others.



5) In the Hadith recorded by Imam al-Bukhari and others, the Companion Umar (Allah be pleased with him) made Tawassul through the uncle of the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace), Abbas (Radhi Allahu Anhu), in asking Allah for rain at the time of drought.



These and many other Ahadith are clear on the permissibility and validity of Tawassul. This is the reason, why the great traditional Sunni scholars have held this belief throughout the ages. Even in the present era, most of the Muslims who belong to the Ahl Sunnah Wal-Jama'ah in most parts of the world have this belief.



Many books in Arabic and other languages have been written in refutation of those who regard Tawassul as Shirk. Scholars from Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait, Emirates, India, Pakistan and saudi Arabia itself have rejected the position held by the minority -so called- Salafi sect.



As far as some of the scholars of the Haramain are concerned, there views in matters of Aqeedah are generally from the blind following of Imam Ibn Taymiyya... The Imam, despite having great knowledge, in many issues chose a path which was different from the path of the majority of the Ummah, and the Scholars by enlarge did not accept his views.



At the same time, one should be precautious in not having any wrong belief in Aqeedah. There should be the conviction that Allah Almighty alone has influence over everything, outwardly and inwardly. Also, one should not have the belief that the supplication (Dua) is not accepted without Tawassul. This is the real Tawheed.



And Allah knows best



Muhammad ibn Adam
 

Ershad

Junior Member
This is a good article for those who are looking for a rational argument regarding intercession through the dead: http://www.bakkah.net/en/intercession-waseela-dead-hear.htm .

This is the very thing that Allah warned us in the Qur'an.
And they worship other than Allah that which neither harms them nor benefits them, and they say, "These are our intercessors with Allah " Say, "Do you inform Allah of something He does not know in the heavens or on the earth?" Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him [10:18]
 

azad.ahmed

Junior Member
This is a good article for those who are looking for a rational argument regarding intercession through the dead: http://www.bakkah.net/en/intercession-waseela-dead-hear.htm .

This is the very thing that Allah warned us in the Qur'an.

Undoubtedly, the type of waseela in the article practised by ignorant who subscribe to corrupt beliefs of shirk ( the power of bestowal is enjoyed by the dead Wali). But this type of waseelah is not the subject of our discussion.It is essential to correctly understand the meaning of Waseelah to avoid confusion. In the shara'i concept of Waseela the belief is correct, i.e. Dua is made to Allah Ta'la, not to the living or the dead or to the inanimate and intangible things.
 

Ershad

Junior Member
Undoubtedly, the type of waseela in the article practised by ignorant who subscribe to corrupt beliefs of shirk ( the power of bestowal is enjoyed by the dead Wali). But this type of waseelah is not the subject of our discussion.It is essential to correctly understand the meaning of Waseelah to avoid confusion. In the shara'i concept of Waseela the belief is correct, i.e. Dua is made to Allah Ta'la, not to the living or the dead or to the inanimate and intangible things.

Brother, Tawassul through the Prophet after his death is not permissible. Tawassul through Prophet (salallahu alayhi wassalam) requires that he makes dua to Allah for you and that happens when he is alive on this Earth. `Umar (radiallahu anhu) mentioned that they made Tawassul through the Prophet when they were afflicted by drought, and after his death they made Tawassul through someone else instead of him.

What is confirmed on the authority of the Sahabah (may Allah be pleased with them) is that they performed Tawassul to Allah through the Prophet (peace be upon him) supplicating to his Lord for them, on their request, as he also did for Istisqa' (Prayer for rain) and on other occasions. This happened when he was alive.

For example,

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) died, `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said, when he went out for Salat-ul-Istisqa', "O Allah! If we were suffering from a drought, we would supplicate to You by our Prophet and you would send us water, and now we perform Tawassul to You through the uncle of our Prophet to send rain to us." And He sent rain. He meant Al-`Abbas who actually supplicated to His Lord for them; he did not make Tawassul by the honor of Al-`Abbas, because the honor of the Prophet (peace be upon him) was greater than that of his uncle's during his lifetime and remained so even after his death. If `Umar had wanted to perform Tawassul, he would have made it by the honor of the Prophet (peace be upon him) instead of his uncle's, but he did not.

The Hadeeth that you quoted cannot be used to prove permissibility of tawassul - Read discussion about that hadeeth (the hadeeth of the blind man) here - http://www.alifta.com/Fatawa/Fatawa...ID=7&SubjectPageTitlesID=51336&MarkIndex=13&0

What is done nowadays like "with the honor of so- so" who is already dead is not permissible, according to scholars.
 

sultanb

Junior Member
Sister,

Have you ever lived in the West? I will tell you why American Muslim women go to the masjid. Not only to pray, but we also go between prayers because of the community. Sometimes where I live, If I dont go the Masjid, I wont see another Muslim for weeks, if not MONTHS. Can you imagine not seeing another Muslim for a month? It's hard dear sister.

But I do believe women should be separated from men. At my masjid's we have a different WING and entrance and parking area to the men. And many of the females wear Niqab. I really dont see how this can be haraaam or fitnah.

And I am an American convert, thank you for making me feel horrible.

I've lived in USA for 15+ years and I must say the community experienced in USA masjids are wonderful. I meet new brothers, and my wife enjoy being on the sisters side as well. I developed a sense of attachment to it, I am abroad now, and I very much miss it :(
 

John Smith

Junior Member
Grave worshipping is shirk and therefore haraam. It is agreed upon. The reason for the answer that darulifta gives to the first question is a person with insufficient knowledge can easily be misguided. We can ask Allah through the wasilah of pious saints and the best being through the wasilah of our nabi alayhi salaam. It isnt allowed to ask from the person who has passed away.
The reason for the answer to the second question is straightforward. Nabi alayhi salaam is alive in his grave and as such when a person conveys salaam standing in front of rodha mubarak he can hear us.
Do not be skeptical. The aqeedah is in perfectly in accordance with ahle sunnah wal jamaat. For more info please contact an aalim.

Very contradictory post.

Firstly, We do not need any saint's or pious people to ask Allah Swt on our behalf we have been given the faculties to do so of our own.

Secondly, We cannot ask of the dead,so why ask the Prophet Muhammad PBUH for such? he is dead and i ask you to refer to the hadith involving Abu Bakr & Umar (RA)of news reaching thier ears of the death of the Prophet (pbuh) and the conversation that took place there after.

Abu Bakr arrived and gave his address:

"O People! If anyone among you worshipped Muhammad, let him know that Muhammad is dead. But those who worshipped Allah, let them know that He lives and will never die. Let all of us recall the words of the Qur'an. It says:

'Muhammad is only a Messenger of Allah, there have been Messengers before him. What then, will you turn back from Islam if he dies or is killed?' "

Suddenly Abu Bakr's words started to sink in, and in no time confusion was gone.

The Prophet Muhammad is dead,period, i agree with you that when we give our Salam from any part of this world the Angels carr our greeting's to him & he returns Salams to us but not how we who are alive do so & (Allah know's Best).

I have never read any article suggestion the Prophet (pbuh) himself or and of the Sahaba or the generation after them mention go through saints supplication to get closer to Allah Swt.
 

hayat84

I'm not what you believe
Assalaam alaikum,

Sister,

I can only answer you from a very personal perspective. I am intrigued by Muslim thought. It fascinates me how the mind when it is tested has to turn to the Love of Allah.
In India before the conception of Pakistan there were men who dedicated their lives to purging out of Islam many elements that had filtered in from living amongst the Hindus. They wanted Muslims to remember the correct path.
This thread is a discussion about the history and the current affairs of the Deobandi.


Help me out, I need a historical response, please. Why was India such a ripe land for Sufi thought. Let's start there. And let us not bash anyone.

I can't help you,I'm sorry,I'm a total ignorant in this matter.I had occasion to watch some video about the Deobandi and saw that men and women dance together mentioning the name of Allah like in a status of trance,it disturbed me,that's why I can't understand what is their message.

there is one thing I've often heard above all during the lesson of religion,is that the teacher used to talk about muslims like the "followers of Maometto".in italian it's sid the "maomettani"(ya rabb smah liya).it's wrong to describe muslims as followers of the prophet mentioning his name,or not?isn't it shirk billah?The deobandi follow the "idea"of a person who wasn't the messenger of Allah,or was Deoband a Sunni muslim?
 

az101

http://www.miraathpublications.net/
Debandi is a Deviated SECT one should Stay away from them , there Scholars , there teachings of IMAN is deviated. they are Misguided in Allahs Attributes and the Tafseer of the Quran is unreliable and along with other problems.

THEY ARE FROM THE PEOPLE OF MISGUIDANCE.

Do you wish to learn about the Deobandi misguidance?

then i have some audios you may benefit from in URDU by on the students of Knowledge in KSA who has a background in learning ISLAM from scholars such as Sheikh Salih al Fawzaan (Riyadh), Sheikh Utaybe and Student of Ibn Uthaymeen.

http://ashabulhadith.com/deobandith/deobandith.html
 

Ron-Kid

HasbunAllahu wa ni`mal Wakil '
Deobandis are hardcore cult sect with a hell lota innovations and its a fact, guys, inspite of wasting your precious time here on discussing it, I would suggest you to please dp your own researches and compare their deen with Islam

wassalam
 

mohammadyunus

Junior Member
Az101,servantofallah1,ron kid - you guys are so wrong. Writing in color or in bold doesnt make you right. Anyways, I feel sorry for you and leave it at that.
 

John Smith

Junior Member
Az101,servantofallah1,ron kid - you guys are so wrong. Writing in color or in bold doesnt make you right. Anyways, I feel sorry for you and leave it at that.

I dont think they are wrong but if you feel that way you should debate your points and provide evidence than just say you feel sorry for them and walking away.
 

azad.ahmed

Junior Member
I can't help you,I'm sorry,I'm a total ignorant in this matter.I had occasion to watch some video about the Deobandi and saw that men and women dance together mentioning the name of Allah like in a status of trance,it disturbed me,that's why I can't understand what is their message.

there is one thing I've often heard above all during the lesson of religion,is that the teacher used to talk about muslims like the "followers of Maometto".in italian it's sid the "maomettani"(ya rabb smah liya).it's wrong to describe muslims as followers of the prophet mentioning his name,or not?isn't it shirk billah?The deobandi follow the "idea"of a person who wasn't the messenger of Allah,or was Deoband a Sunni muslim?

this is a big slander and lie ... i had listened many lecture against music/dancing/grave worship etc by deobandi ulema.
 

azad.ahmed

Junior Member
I dont think they are wrong but if you feel that way you should debate your points and provide evidence than just say you feel sorry for them and walking away.

you are living in england ..half of the masjids in UK run by deoband.. give me name of a single masjid in which you saw grave worshiping ,dancing ?
 

sultanb

Junior Member
It's better if we focus on doing good in this world, make a meaningful contribution. It's best to leave this discussion to Allah who will bring clarity to what we differ on.

And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ. 5.48
 
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