Female Genital Mutilation

[108EEDMAH]

im really pissed. in my philosophy class i was reading a book and they brought up islam
"in some non western Islamic cultures they practise female genital mutilation" (surgery on the womens private part)
and kept on going about they do this so the girl doesnt do anything haram before marriage. what the hell i was so pissed. there already a million misconceptions about islam and now there trying to use this, so i sent my prof an email sayin this isnt fair. muslims dont practise this and if they did its haram because ur chaning the way Allah created you.

So he sent me a reply saying that its messy. That he read before that the Prophet (pbuh) said " do not cut to severly...." when asked about the practise. I need some help Brothers and Sisters. I need to find where he got this Hadith so i can see who wrote it and then i need some hadiths that make this haram. There is nothing about this in the Quran but he also said that it can be debated that it might be in the Quran.

thanks

 

[ShyHijabi]

:salam2:

Both hadiths related to female circumcision have been decalred daeef or false by the majority of the scholars. I keep this reference on hand whenever people inquire about this....very well written paper refuting the argument that FGM is in anyway "Islamic."

http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/HealthEdReligion/CircumcisionEn/Chapter1FemaleCircumcision.htm

FMG is still carried out by uneducated people (Muslim and non Muslim) but alhumdulillah seems to be getting phased out. It was a cultural practice long before Islam came into the areas and sadly some people will cling to their cultures in spite of the light of Islam banishing such barbarity.

 

[JenGiove]

Sister ShyHijabi,

It seems you and I have the same sources.....I've actually been focused on this issue because here in the states, when we think about Arabs (in American minds, there is no way to separate Arabs from Muslims), we think of some horrible stuff and one of those things is FGM. Here are some links I have found.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

http://www.religioustolerance.org/fem_circ.htm

FGM has been a social custom in Northern Africa for millennia. Many people link FGM with the religion of Islam. Actually, it is a social custom that is practiced by Animists, Christians, and Muslims in those countries where FGM is common. There are many Muslim countries in which the mutilation is essentially unknown, including Algeria, Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting#Prevalence

Amnesty International estimates that over 130 million women worldwide have been affected by some form of FGM, with over 3 million girls at risk of undergoing FGM every year. FGM is mainly practised in 28 different African countries.[9] It is common in a band that stretches from Senegal in West Africa to Ethiopia on the East coast, as well as from Egypt in the north to Tanzania in the south; see Map. It is also practised by some groups in the Arabian peninsula. The country where FGM is most prevalent is Egypt, followed by Sudan, Ethiopia, and Mali. Egypt recently passed a law banning FGM.[38]

http://www.unicef.org/protection/index_genitalmutilation.html

FGM/C is practiced for a number of reasons including:

Sexual: to control or reduce female sexuality.
Sociological: for example, as an initiation for girls into womanhood, social integration and the maintenance of social cohesion.
Hygiene and aesthetic reasons: where it is believed that the female genitalia are dirty and unsightly.
Health: in the belief that it enhances fertility and child survival.
Religious reasons: in the mistaken belief that FGM/C is a religious requirement

There is a alot of links relating to FGM/C, including some videos.
http://www.middle-east-info.org/league/egypt/egypt.htm

This may be where the eronious information comes from. I'm not sure that they worded it correctly. I don't know if they intended to imply that ALL
Muslims adhere to the practice, but that is how it is read, so the intent doesn't matter. The damage is done.
http://www.irinnews.org/IndepthMain.aspx?IndepthId=15&ReportId=62462

Certain communities carry out FGM for religious reasons, believing that their faith requires it; this is particularly true of Muslims who adhere to the practice. Other communities consider female genitalia to be ugly, offensive or dirty, and thus the removal of the external genitalia makes a woman more hygienic and aesthetically pleasing. Some subscribe to the notion that FGM enhances a woman's fertility, and the chances of her children's survival.

I didn't dare watch the video, but the text under the article CLEARLY states:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/jul/25/female-circumcision-children-british-law

Cleanliness, neatness of appearance and the increased sexual pleasure for the man are all motivations for the practice. But the desire to conform to tradition is the most powerful motive. The rite of passage, condemned by many Islamic scholars, predates both the Koran and the Bible and possibly even Judaism, appearing in the 2nd century BC.

I DO recommend watching these trailers of a movie called "Desert Flower". An autobiographical account of FGM/C.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1054580/

The autobiography of a Somalian nomad circumcised at 3, sold in marriage at 13, fled from Africa a while later to become finally an American supermodel and is now at the age of 38, the UN spokeswoman against circumcision. Written by Athina-90

 

[108EEDMAH]

thank you guys sooooo much dont no how much this means to me

 

[JenGiove]

thank you guys sooooo much dont no how much this means to me

Brother, we do know. We're women.

 

[thariq2005]

:salam2:

Both hadiths related to female circumcision have been decalred daeef or false by the majority of the scholars. I keep this reference on hand whenever people inquire about this....very well written paper refuting the argument that FGM is in anyway "Islamic."

http://www.emro.who.int/Publications/HealthEdReligion/CircumcisionEn/Chapter1FemaleCircumcision.htm

FMG is still carried out by uneducated people (Muslim and non Muslim) but alhumdulillah seems to be getting phased out. It was a cultural practice long before Islam came into the areas and sadly some people will cling to their cultures in spite of the light of Islam banishing such barbarity.

Wa `alaykkum salaam wa rahmatullaah

Sister I ask you to please reconsider your words, and I advise you to speak with knowledge or else remain silent, especially when you are using words such as "Barbaric". The least that can be said about female circumcision is that it is a "sunnah", and there is ijmaa`(consensus) on this matter. And can you please kindly refer me to atleast one classical scholar who used the words that you have used? Do you not think that what was enough for those righteous people before us in terms of this deen is enough for us?

And just to let know, the narration in Aboo Dawood is not the only narration, but rather there are a few more like: Muslim (349) narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the two circumcised parts meet, then ghusl is obligatory.”

"The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) mentioned the two circumcised parts, i.e., the circumcised part of the husband and the circumcised part of the wife, which indicates that a woman may be circumcised just like a man. "

Where the difference of opinion comes in, is whether female circumcision is waajib or mustahabb...

1 – That it is obligatory for both males and females. This is the view of the Shaafa’is and Hanbalis, and is the view favoured by al-Qaadi Abu Bakr ibn al-‘Arabi among the Maalikis (may Allaah have mercy on them all).

Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Majmoo’ (1/367): Circumcision is obligatory for both men and women in our view. This is the view of many of the salaf, as was narrated by al-Khattaabi. Among those who regarded it as obligatory is Ahmad… it is the correct view that is well known and was stated by al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him), and the majority stated definitively that it is obligatory for both men and women. end quote.

See Fath al-Baari, 10/340; Kishshaaf al-Qinaa’, 1/80

2 – That circumcision is Sunnah for both males and females. This is the view of the Hanafis and Maalikis, and was narrated in one report from Ahmad. Ibn ‘Aabideen al-Hanafi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in his Haashiyah (6/751): In Kitaab al-Tahaarah of al-Siraaj al-Wahhaaj it says: Know that circumcision is Sunnah in our view – i.e., according to the Hanafis – for men and for women. end quote.

See: Mawaahib al-Jaleel, 3/259

3 – That circumcision is obligatory for men and is good and mustahabb for women. This is the third view of Imam Ahmad, and it is the view of some Maalikis such as Sahnoon. This view was also favoured by al-Muwaffaq ibn Qudaamah in al-Mughni.

See: al-Tamheed, 21/60; al-Mughni, 1/63

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (5/223):

Circumcision is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah, and it is for both males and females, except that is it obligatory for males and Sunnah and good in the case of women. End quote

Thus it is clear that the fuqaha’ of Islam are agreed that circumcision is prescribed for both males and females, and in fact the majority of them are of the view that it is obligatory for both. No one said that it is not prescribed or that it is makrooh or haraam.

And you can read more here... http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/60314/

I would just like to remind you, that a person who mocks/belittles/ridicules something from the sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: or from the Book of Allaah Subhaanah, then this person will fall out of the fold of Islaam. So I remind you so that you may take heed inshaa'Allaah. Indeed this deen is sincere advice, so as a brother I advise you.

Jazakillaahu khairaa

Wassalaamu `alaykkum

 

[noor aldeen]

:salam2:
jazak allah kerin

 

[Idris16]

My biggest advice to you. It was not reported that the wives and daughters of the prophet were circumcised.

And FGM is harâm since he said: do not go to extremes..

Remember that FGM is DIFFERENT to the SUNNAH!

The sunnah practice is ok..
wasalam

 

[Abu Talib]

My biggest advice to you. It was not reported that the wives and daughters of the prophet were circumcised.

And FGM is harâm since he said: do not go to extremes..

Remember that FGM is DIFFERENT to the SUNNAH!

The sunnah practice is ok..
wasalam

:salam2:

Are you a Mujtahid to declare it Haraam?

 

[108EEDMAH]

i just wanna tell you guys the way my dad answered this (not saying he knows everything but he did answer it in a very simple way)

if the Prophet (pbuh) did say this it was a reply to a question. This means he didnt teach or preach this he was just giving the person some advise about doing it. Keeping in mind that this hadith is weak and some even ignore it. But the biggest thing is that as Muslims we follow the Prophet as best as we can. N no where did the Prophet say do this or did he recommend it and like many of you said that the daughters of the Prophet never did this. so y would we do it???
Alhamdulla i learned something new and i hope other people did to and inshalla my teacher

 

[Idris16]

:salam2:

Are you a Mujtahid to declare it Haraam?

so going extreme like that is halâl?
if its halal then its like saying the beard is a mere sunnah..
the sunnah practice is different to FGM

 

[Idris16]

i just wanna tell you guys the way my dad answered this (not saying he knows everything but he did answer it in a very simple way)

if the Prophet (pbuh) did say this it was a reply to a question. This means he didnt teach or preach this he was just giving the person some advise about doing it. Keeping in mind that this hadith is weak and some even ignore it. But the biggest thing is that as Muslims we follow the Prophet as best as we can. N no where did the Prophet say do this or did he recommend it and like many of you said that the daughters of the Prophet never did this. so y would we do it???
Alhamdulla i learned something new and i hope other people did to and inshalla my teacher

its not necessary that the sunnah circumcision hurts so much like that of fgm..

 

[saif]

:salam2: brother Thariq

Thanks for your post. I have a few questions.

1. How could you ever suppose about a muslim sister to mock something from the Sunnah. We may have one or the other opinion about ascribing a certain hadith to the Prophet but no one can be a muslim, if he does not accept everything, which the Prophet has given to us as deen. Now, I understand, that the healthy chain of narration is the only condition, which the people of your qabeel pose, but you must understand, that there are other muslims, who are a bit more careful in what they ascribe to the Prophet.

2. Since we almost all agree, that we should not blindly follow anybody, regardless the big name of the scholar, the whole information, you have posted is just nice to have. Without a discussion on the original sources, and the methodology used to derive that verdict, it does not carry a lot of weight, if you really want to be gheir muqallad. Would you please be kind enough and post that material?

3. Since I do not want to open the pendora box of methodology debate, I will just selectively raise some questions, without giving my own opinion, which will not count in your eyes, anyway.

a) Isn't there the possibility of riwayah bil ma'na in the hadith you have quoted? Since the main purpose of the narration is law about ghusl, couldn't it just be an expression chosen by the narrator? Can you ellaborate, how the scholars are so sure that this could never be the case?

b) Isn't it necessary for something to become deen, that it should be explicit?

c) I understand, that you belong to the qabeel of people, for whom everything from (sahih) ahadith is "from Sunnah". However, is it so hard to understand, that only directives, which are by definition deen, can be termed as "from Sunnah", and things like "increasing the production of dates" or "healing a certain illness by camel urine" are not the matters of deen, and hence can never get the status of "Sunnah", regardless of the number of sahih ahadith about them. I can quote Shah Waliullah, who insists, that the so called "prophetic medicine" is not sunnah and Ibn Khuldoon, who considers the so called "prophetic medicine" to be nothing more than the popular medicine of the time of the Prophet. Now, coming to our original topic, I understand, that circumcision of males is by definition deen, because it has to do with purity and hygiene, and purity (tihaarah) is a sole and declared objective of deen. However, somebody has to explain me, how decreasing the sexual desire/pleasure in females can be an objective of deen. So, now a very explicite question, "Can you ellaborate the purpose of FGM and that it is by definition deen? Because only then something from ahadith will become something "from Sunnah", because Sunnah is deen, so FGM has to be deen"

If something is in ahadith but it is not deen, then why should I care? If people have found other medicines than camel urine, then should I get worried, that they are doing bid'ah.

d) Arn't certain bad customes of the society tollerated to die out by time, like slavery? Would you then say, "How dare you say slavery is bad, because slavery is from Sunnah"? Would you say I am mocking the sunnah, if I say, slavery is a curse?

e) If Qur'an and Sunnah are silent on a certain matter (and by being silent, it means, they do not contain an explicit directive on that matter), doesn't that define the area of mubahaat, where societies can do ijtihaad? Doesn't it become sinnful to do something against the law of the land, if that law is not contradicting the law of Allah (Quran and Sunnah)?

I hope, you will find time to get answers for this sincere student.

 

[BrotherInIslam7]

Salaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi,

I precisely don't know what Female Genital Mutilation constitutes nor do I posses enough knowledge with regards to Islamic female circumcision.

However, I do feel these two terminologies are being confused and being used interchangeably. I found something on Islam QA about Islamic circumcision that might help clarify a few things for people who have knowledge on these subjects.

Circumcision of the female consists of the removal of a part of the clitoris, which is situated above the opening of the urethra. The Sunnah is not to remove all of it, but only a part. (al-Mawsu‘ah al-Fiqhiyyah 19/28).

In this matter, it is wise to follow the interests of the female: if the clitoris is large, then part of it should be removed, otherwise it should be left alone. This size of the clitoris will vary from woman to woman, and there may be differences between those from hot climates and those from cold climates.

How circumcision is to be performed is mentioned in the hadith narrated by Umm ‘Atiyah, may Allah be pleased with her, according to which a woman used to perform circumcisions in Madinah. The Prophet (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon Him) told her: "Do not abuse (i.e. do not go to extremes in circumcising); that is better for the woman and more liked by her husband." (Reported by Abu Dawud in al-Sunan, Kitab al-Adab; he said this hadith is da‘if).

Reference : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/427

 

[thariq2005]

:salam2: brother Thariq

Thanks for your post. I have a few questions.

1. How could you ever suppose about a muslim sister to mock something from the Sunnah. We may have one or the other opinion about ascribing a certain hadith to the Prophet but no one can be a muslim, if he does not accept everything, which the Prophet has given to us as deen. Now, I understand, that the healthy chain of narration is the only condition, which the people of your qabeel pose, but you must understand, that there are other muslims, who are a bit more careful in what they ascribe to the Prophet.

2. Since we almost all agree, that we should not blindly follow anybody, regardless the big name of the scholar, the whole information, you have posted is just nice to have. Without a discussion on the original sources, and the methodology used to derive that verdict, it does not carry a lot of weight, if you really want to be gheir muqallad. Would you please be kind enough and post that material?

3. Since I do not want to open the pendora box of methodology debate, I will just selectively raise some questions, without giving my own opinion, which will not count in your eyes, anyway.

a) Isn't there the possibility of riwayah bil ma'na in the hadith you have quoted? Since the main purpose of the narration is law about ghusl, couldn't it just be an expression chosen by the narrator? Can you ellaborate, how the scholars are so sure that this could never be the case?

b) Isn't it necessary for something to become deen, that it should be explicit?

c) I understand, that you belong to the qabeel of people, for whom everything from (sahih) ahadith is "from Sunnah". However, is it so hard to understand, that only directives, which are by definition deen, can be termed as "from Sunnah", and things like "increasing the production of dates" or "healing a certain illness by camel urine" are not the matters of deen, and hence can never get the status of "Sunnah", regardless of the number of sahih ahadith about them. I can quote Shah Waliullah, who insists, that the so called "prophetic medicine" is not sunnah and Ibn Khuldoon, who considers the so called "prophetic medicine" to be nothing more than the popular medicine of the time of the Prophet. Now, coming to our original topic, I understand, that circumcision of males is by definition deen, because it has to do with purity and hygiene, and purity (tihaarah) is a sole and declared objective of deen. However, somebody has to explain me, how decreasing the sexual desire/pleasure in females can be an objective of deen. So, now a very explicite question, "Can you ellaborate the purpose of FGM and that it is by definition deen? Because only then something from ahadith will become something "from Sunnah", because Sunnah is deen, so FGM has to be deen"

If something is in ahadith but it is not deen, then why should I care? If people have found other medicines than camel urine, then should I get worried, that they are doing bid'ah.

d) Arn't certain bad customes of the society tollerated to die out by time, like slavery? Would you then say, "How dare you say slavery is bad, because slavery is from Sunnah"? Would you say I am mocking the sunnah, if I say, slavery is a curse?

e) If Qur'an and Sunnah are silent on a certain matter (and by being silent, it means, they do not contain an explicit directive on that matter), doesn't that define the area of mubahaat, where societies can do ijtihaad? Doesn't it become sinnful to do something against the law of the land, if that law is not contradicting the law of Allah (Quran and Sunnah)?

I hope, you will find time to get answers for this sincere student.

Wa `alaykkum salaam wa rahmatullaah

May Allaah have mercy on you, my beloved noble brother. And May He, Subhaanah, elevate your status in this dunya and the aakhirah

1) I did not suppose that our sister mocked the sunnah, I only wished for her to not unintentionally fall into 'mocking' the sunnah (And I have husn adh Dhann that she will never do it intentionally and may Allaah preserve her deen). And I hope that Allaah makes her from among the righteous women in Jannah

2) I do not know if you have studied Usool al Fiqh, but if you haven't then I advice you to read up on what is Ijmaa` (Consensus of scholars). And this is basically when the scholars agree upon a matter and once they do, then it is not permissible to go against it. And this is based on the hadeeth of the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: that 'this ummah will not agree upon misguidance'

3) a) Even for the sake of arguement, if you do say that the hadeeth means something else, it still does not change anything due to the fact that all scholars have mentioned that Female Circumcision is legislated in this deen.

b) Again, I advise you to study Usool al Fiqh and inshaa'Allaah things must be a bit more clearer. But on a brief note, Ijmaa` is something that the scholars use as evidence as well.

c) O' my brother, is not what was enough for the Messenger of Allaah :saw2:, the Sahaabah, the taabi`een enough for you (in terms of the deen). If you believe with ikhlaas that the medicines recommended by the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: will help, then bi idhnillaah it should help.

I ask you, on what basis do you say that "male circumcision" is from the deen and not female? I hope we have not come down to picking and choosing what we like...

I have no clue about what FGM is, all I am defending here is female circumcision that is done the Islaamic way.

d) No I won't say that, but if one was to say that the Slavery practised by the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: is bad/harsh/barbaric, then yes this person is mocking the sunnah and thus a Kaafir!

e) Again if you read up on Ijmaa`, then things will be much clearer for you inshaa'Allaah. Having said that, if there is ijmaa` upon something, then that is something legislated in the deen, for it was not, then the ummah will not have agreed upon it.


Wassalaamu `alaykkum

 

[JenGiove]

I have no clue about what FGM is, all I am defending here is female circumcision that is done the Islaamic way.

Female Genital Mutilation/Circumcision

 

[Abu Talib]

:salam2:

Oh ya it made me wonder too I guess there is a difference between FGM & Circumcision.

 

[MohammedMaksudul]

:salam2:
I don't know anything on the topic, so I will refrain from speaking on it. But what I am observing is that this circumcision for women is not obligatory whatsoever, so it is really unnecessary for us to worry. As I don't think any Muslim man (true Muslim) would ever force his wife against her will, which is not obligatory on her. But yes this topic should be clarified for the reason the starter of this thread has posed forward. The material on Islam qa posted by BrotherinIslam seems quite ok to me. But I am still open to know the ultimate truth behind this controversial topic, since this will be very important during dawah to non-muslims.

 

[kayleigh]

This just reminded me... in one of my classes there's a guy who just got back from doing two tours in afghanistan and iraq. He told our class that in Iraq, Saddam made it a law that all women had to be circumcised so that Saddam's son wouldn't be tempted to rape anymore young girls. Now, obviously this makes NO SENSE for several reasons. But the post by JenGiove about FGM not being practiced in Iraq reminded me of this.

So I wonder... is this something they tell the troops to make them hate Saddam more and think they're doing a humanitarian service, or something they tell them to discourage them from having relations with the Iraqi women? Either way, its weird.

Salaamalaykum waa rahmatullahi,

I precisely don't know what Female Genital Mutilation constitutes nor do I posses enough knowledge with regards to Islamic female circumcision.

However, I do feel these two terminologies are being confused and being used interchangeably. I found something on Islam QA about Islamic circumcision that might help clarify a few things for people who have knowledge on these subjects.



Reference : http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/427

I'm not a doctor (ShyHijabi is! ) but what you quoted doesn't make any sense. I mean, I assume you can't just cut part of it without damaging the rest of the nerve endings (unless you know what you're doing and often times this is done in a back alley with a piece of glass or something). I also fail to see how hot and cold climates have anything to do with it at all. If a woman's clitoris is "too big" she can decide that for herself when she reaches sexual maturity. But this is usually practiced on young girls who don't know what any of it means, which is totally unacceptable. I don't know what woman would want any part of it removed unless she had a medical condition or some kind of deformity - there was something in the news recently about circumcision being practiced on some girls, voluntarily, on the East Coast in the US who had an actual medical condition, but that isn't exactly common.