Hi there

a_stranger

Junior Member
You are most welcome, and I think it is very natural you think this way since you are new to Quran and Arabic , but I am sure that the one who created you ( me ...all the people as well) has planted in your heart his love and need ...but our hearts get rustd (due to many factors) .....believe me it`s health and light is in understanding and having faith in Islam .....step by step if you come closer to your creator by more undertsanding and more sincerity you will feel true peace and satisfaction .........Quran is the light that can shine within hearts ......Don`t rush just continue searching with pure intention ( This is very important)
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
It's hard not to generalize when every single Muslim I've met online has either shunned me or banned me from forums or whatever. It's ridiculous..

Therefore you generalize all Muslims? That's not wise enough. Muslims will entertain if you ask them in a friendly manner. Don't be bias in your judgement. You are giving us an impression that you came here with fixed mind.

I've read the Tanakh and the "New Testament" and maybe it's just me but God seems so anthropomorphic and bordering on schizophrenia sometimes..

The Gospels were manipulated by human hands, why blaming God? The pagans used to call all the Prophets (may Allah's peace be upon them) this way, you are now one step ahead of them, calling God as "schizophrenia" is unacceptable. Now I know why your thread was banned. Why can't you use proper language when addressing God?

I'm reading the Qur'an at the moment as well, so many people hold this book to be God's word, and so many people are converting to Islam claiming that they found truth in this book but I just don't get it, I want to get it but I don't. I mean, at least the Bible was a coherent story,

Are you sure? Why you are not a christian then?

Pls refer this website if you don't know that Bible is full of contradictions and errors:

wwwjamaat.net/bible/Bible4-6.html

Pls produce verses from the Holy Qur'an that are not coherent.

"Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Quran) if they are truthful" (Holy Qur'an 52:34)
 

BinteShafi

Left long ago
Well !!! To be honest I did not understand some parts of your question ( I am not smart at all) Some knowledgeable bother or sister will answer that I hope.

Message of Qur'an is very Simple.

Purpose of creating mankind and jinn is to worship Allah.

Allah is the creator of this whole universe. He is the creators, so he is the legislator. Whole universe (except jinn and mankind) follow HIS commands. HE has sent Prophets to mankind from time to time for their guidance who would tell them to worship him alone. Whoever will obay the law and order in HIS state will be rewarded and whoever disobey state law and order will be punished (Is this not fair Mr. Kats ???? His state, His creation ....so HIS law must be followed. Isn't it? If not then we should be ready for the punishment as per state law. HE has informed us of HIS law through his Prophets).

Now Allah is creator and everything else is creation. He can create anything without any matter. He created Adam (Peace be upon him) without his father and mother. He created Jesus without a father. When HE says "BE" then it becomes. Do you think this whole universe could have been created without a creator?

Now Qur'an is the source of guidance for whole humanity....regardless of the language, color, or race etc. A large portion of Muslims come from those races who do not speak arabic. So the message of the Qur'an can ceratinly be conveyed and translated in any language BUT the miracleous and the powerful impact of the Qur'an can definately NOT be translated. Can you translate the very essense of the english poetry to any other language ???

May Allah help you to find the truth. No one can misguide to the who is guided by HIM.
 

Kats

New Member
Therefore you generalize all Muslims? That's not wise enough. Muslims will entertain if you ask them in a friendly manner. Don't be bias in your judgement. You are giving us an impression that you came here with fixed mind.

I'm sorry if I'm coming off as generalizing but I've just had bad experiences so far.

The Gospels were manipulated by human hands, why blaming God? The pagans used to call all the Prophets (may Allah's peace be upon them) this way, you are now one step ahead of them, calling God as "schizophrenia" is unacceptable. Now I know why your thread was banned. Why can't you use proper language when addressing God?

Proper language? Schitzophrenia is a very real psychological problem...

Are you sure? Why you are not a christian then?

Because Yeshua didn't fulfill half of the required prophecy to be even considered moshiach.

Pls produce verses from the Holy Qur'an that are not coherent.

What I meant by "incoherant" was not "contradictory" as I think you understand me as meaning but rather, it just starts off with no real beginning, constantly hopping around to different subjects (most of them about how people will burn).

Purpose of creating mankind and jinn is to worship Allah.

Why would a force of creation create it's creation simply to worship it?

Allah is the creator of this whole universe. He is the creators, so he is the legislator. Whole universe (except jinn and mankind) follow HIS commands.

What is a "Jinn"?

Now Allah is creator and everything else is creation. He can create anything without any matter. He created Adam (Peace be upon him) without his father and mother. He created Jesus without a father. When HE says "BE" then it becomes. Do you think this whole universe could have been created without a creator?

No I don't. I said this in my post thingo.

Can you translate the very essense of the english poetry to any other language ???

So if God is capable of anything why couldn't he have dictated the Qur'an to Muhammad in a way that could be translated into other languages or create some other kind of amazing text that the whole of humanity could read as beautiful poetry no matter which language? (I've only read about a quarter of the Qur'an so please excuse me if I appear ignorant)

May Allah help you to find the truth. No one can misguide to the who is guided by HIM.

Believe me, every day I go to sleep hoping the next day I come closer to finding the truth.
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
I'm sorry if I'm coming off as generalizing but I've just had bad experiences so far

That's ok. Every communities there are black sheep, I don't deny we do but we can't generalize the whole community just because you had bad experiences with few of them. If you come to some developing country, you will notice some ppl do not stop at traffic lights. You may want to us why? Is this country lawlwess? No there are laws but they are "black sheep" that do not respect the law.


Proper language? Schitzophrenia is a very real psychological problem...

My Oxford dictionary says "mental disorder". Do you think it is polite?


Because Yeshua didn't fulfill half of the required prophecy to be even considered moshiach.

Can you prove?

According to Holy Qur'an, Isaa (peace be upon him) is the Messiah.

O People of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah Jesus, son of Mary, was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Mary and a spirit created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilaah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (Holy Qur'an, 4:171)

What I meant by "incoherant" was not "contradictory" as I think you understand me as meaning but rather, it just starts off with no real beginning, constantly hopping around to different subjects (most of them about how people will burn).

What I understand you mentioned the stories in Bible were consistent, so I asked, "are you sure"?

That's why Qur'an remain in it's original form, in classical Arabic language. I just read my employment contract, it says "This Agreement shall be published in English and **local languages** and in the event of a dispute arising out of the interpretation of the Agreement, the English version shall prevail". Assuming there is no English version what will happen? They will be many different interpretaion from employers and employees. So, is there Gospels in Aramaic? So how can you say the stories in the Gospels to be "coherent"? Likewise, you can only call Bible is as "Holy" if still in it's original form. Can you see the wisdom?

..constantly hopping around to different subjects (most of them about how people will burn).

This (Quran) is the Book, Whereof there is no doubt, A guidance for the God-fearing (Holy Qur'an, 2:2).

This is what Allah mentioned in the Qur'an on what will happen hereafter,

And if you only could see when the criminal sinners shall hang their heads before their Lord (saying): "Our Lord! We have now seen and heard, so send us back (to the world), we will do righteous good deeds. Verily! We now believe with certainty." (Holy Qur'an 32:12)

What these sinners "have seen and heard"? The hellfire which they refused to believe or ignored it when they were still alive though Qur'an had warned many times about it. Allah is the Creator, He is All Knower. Nothing wrong to warn many times, Allah does not wish you and me to go to hellfire so He warning us.

Allah then said:

Then taste you (the torment of the Fire) because of your forgetting the Meeting of this Day of yours, (and) surely! We too will forget you, so taste you the abiding torment for what you used to do. (Holy Qur'an 32:14)
 

Hard Rock Moslem

I'm your brother
Believe me, every day I go to sleep hoping the next day I come closer to finding the truth.

May Allah guides you. I used to be like you before I embraced Islam. Alhamdulillah, He guided me and I found the truth. I make du'a (supplication) to Allah to guide you as well. Ameen.
 

a_stranger

Junior Member
Meaning of worship in Islam

To worship Allah swt means to love him the most love with most humility , to obey him , and live in accordance with his law. I think it is natural and logical to love the one who created us and gave us all the facilities we are enjoying ( seeing , hearing, reasoning, talking......breathing ..........living.........etc.) , it is natural to love the one who nourished us since we were fetus in the wombs of our mothers , and made the earth and sky our big home and supplied us with all our needs ......if some one give you a gift each weak then how would you feel towards him ? what about who is giving us every thing every moment?....More..I believe that hope for Paradise and fear of Hell (which are mentioned in Quran) are very useful feelings that can drive people to do all that is good and reject all evils without such inner feelings our humanity suffers a lot.
 

Abu_Luqmann

Junior Member
My dear friend,

First of all welcome to TTI. We try to answer, to the best of our abilities, whoever comes to this forum genuinely seeking to know more about Islam. Moderators can be strict on those whose sole purpose to come to this forum seem to be to ridicule, abuse or patronise. Thats what they are for and they are doing a good job of that!

The Holy Quran says,

Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance. 16:125

I donot know to what extend you understand the Islamic concepts of theology. So, I will try and explain the basics first.

Islam is not a new religion invented by an Arab in the desert 1400 year ago. Islam has been the religion of the first man, Adam (btw, muslims donot believe in part of evolution that tries to convince the world that humans evolved from apes and rightly so, as there is no convincing scientific proof, only hypothesis. we have no objection in evolution within the species as part of the beings' adaptation to the natural environment. Anywyz, thats digressing from the topic and a different discussion altogether!). The theological concept is that from the first man Adam, who was a prophet to the last prophet, Muhammed (Peace be upon them both) the preaching has been the same i.e., belief in One God. Only the laws which guide their lives were different for different prophets and has been finalised by the last prophet.


Allah, btw, is Arabic word formed from Al (The) and Ilah (Lord). Not a new word founded by the Arabian Prophet. Infact you wound find the same Allah in Arabic Old and New Testaments. The first arabic New and Old Testament translations were written around 400 years after the death of Prophet Muhammed (Peace be upon him). So the word Allah only means The Lord and is accepted as The Name for The One God by all arabic speaking people regradless of religion.

The Islamic concept of prophethood starts from the first man Adam and includes Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Ismail (Ishmael), Ishaq (Issac), Yunus (Jonah), Yaqoob (Jacob), Yusuf (Joseph), Musa (Moses) and Isa (Jesus) to mention a few. May the Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon them all. Each and every community of people that ever lived on the surface of the earth were sent a prophet conveying the same message of belief in One God. Some believed, some didnt and yet others strayed away after the prophets passed away.

Allah mentions in the Holy Quran

And every nation had a messenger; so when their messenger came, the matter was decided between them with justice and they shall not be dealt with unjustly. 010.048

Prophet Muhammed (Peace be Upon Him) was the last and final Prophet.

Allah mentions in the Holy Quran
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. 33:40

That's in brief regarding the concept of God and Prophethood.


Regarding your doubts about what is outside the expanding universe. I dont know the answer to that. But what the Holy Quran does say is,

Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe? 21:30

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)


Regarding the characteristics of God, I understand that when a person reads the Old Testament He comes across as a harsh and unforgiving God while the new Testament paints a picture of absolute mercy and love. The problem lies in identifying which is right. Or if both are right, did He decide to change His characteristics overnight? Highly unlikely to suit God if one comprehends Him to be the Creator and Owner of all things. For God to have variations in mood, changes in His attitude to His creation over a period of time, to have authority complex, to find entertainment in flicking matches at His creation (in your words), absolutely not. Blasphemous allegation to say the least!Hence you find some people getting upset at the usage of such terminology.

The Islamic concept introduces us to a God who is Most Merciful and Most compassionate but also the Lord of Retribution. Now how do they both fit together.


The Quran then says
And every nation had a messenger; so when their messenger came, the matter was decided between them with justice and they shall not be dealt with unjustly. 010.048

What these messengers taught was about Allah and the worship Him Alone.
But as mentioned earlier, all people didnot receive these messengers warmly and many of those who did, transgressed later. So He continued to send Prophets to people until mankind reached a stage of advancement where it was only necessary to send one last Prophet to the whole of mankind with the message. He was given a Book that has been protected from corruption, insertions and deletions by Divine Will. It has been made an obligation to those who have received this message to impart it to those who have not. We are answerable on the Day of Judgement if we donot. If a person dies never having heard this message Allah, The Most Merciful, will deal with him in the Most Just way.

On the other hand, if a person receives this message and dies refusing to believe in them, then he/she will have to face the consequences of His Retribution.

One may argue, what if one has heard about it but is not convinced. The onus is on the person to find out.

To put it in a different way, as you mentioned 'the whole world is just one big absurd part of a crazy universe'. A person may chose to be content with that blind belief and not investigate further. Else one may decide to dig a bit deeper and ponder about the creation. Do creation happen by chance? Have you ever noticed a table being carved out of wood by chance? Would you believe if someone tells you that something as simple a piece of furniture got carved out, polished and glazed out of a tree 'by sheer luck'? Would you believe if someone says a computer with all its different components, the hard ware, the soft ware and the rest of it, can assimilate to become a working unit just by itself. A long shot, I would say!

But then comes the argument that some thing as complex as life, earth, universe all 'happened by chance'? The paradox is, in this world of evidence based understanding we are sometimes forced to believe in the most ridiculous of concepts.

If The God who created the whole universe including the humans, then asks him repeatedly to worship Him alone and if we humans, not big to be even represented as a tiny speck in the vast universe, decide to deny Him, is it unfair to be punished?

The Holy Quran says
And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should worship Me. 51:56


One of the reasons, as I understand, the Non-Islamic world opts to keep religion and science apart is that the two concepts as they understand it donot fit well. One is asking to have faith and then understand while the other votes to have understanding first to be convinced. People then get disillusioned by religion and tend to label all religions under the same banner. What most people donot know is that there are other systems where science and theology are in perfect harmony with each other. It is these people who objectively explore into other systems that get convinced and 'convert to Islam claiming that they found truth in this book'.

I see that you cannot accept that the muslim view point that the word of God cannot be translated. It is not exactly the way you put it. An item of literature had different components to it. Some of them being concept, content, use of words, rhyme etc. Yes, many have attempted to translate the Holy Quran to benefit those who donot speak arabic as their first language. The problem is, one may succeed in translating the content but fail to do justice to the rest of the prose like concept, rhyme etc. This fact is appreciated by all those who have attempted to translate the Holy Quran. You may find many websites that have different english translations. The very fact that the wordings used by different translators differ and so does the quality of language therein will serve to provide you with an insight into the problem. I, myself, am not a speaker of the arabic language. But as I attempt to learn arabic and begin to understand the language better I find myself in a better position to comprehend the problems surrounding translation. Hence the reason to recommend learning the arabic language. Having said that, there are many who got convinced after studying the translations and have subsequently embarked on a journey to learn a new language at ripe ages of more than 50 yrs and have done exceedingly well. A lot is possible if one attempts!

We all appreciate that you have taken the first step to explore other systems and ways of living. Insha Allah (God Willing) you will go further. My best wishes and do remember that this site is always open to those who genuinely seek!

I leave you with a few quatations from the Holy Quran


Surely, Allah wrongs not even of the weight of a speck of dust, but if there is any good, He doubles it. 4:40

And say: "The truth is from your Lord.'' Then whosoever wills, let him believe; and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve. 18:29

There is no compulsion in religion. 2:256
 

Kats

New Member
My Oxford dictionary says "mental disorder". Do you think it is polite?

It's neither "polite" nor "impolite", mental is to do with psychology, a disorder is something wrong. I have bipolar- thus I have a mental disorder. Doctors thought I might have had schizophrenia and having read a few psychology textbooks (remember I'm nobody intelligent and I'm definitely not a psychologist so be kind!) the way Qur'an depicts Allah (at least from my probably biased reading) is very symptomatic of Schizophrenia.

Can you prove?

According to Holy Qur'an, Isaa (peace be upon him) is the Messiah.

Well first of all, for someone to even be considered the Moshiach they must fulfill EVERY prophecy, not just one or two, here or there, but every single one. There are so many but let's start with a few.

The Moshiach be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendant of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18). Yeshua's (Isa's) geneology is mentioned twice in the New Testament, in Matthew 1 and Luke 3, which state he is descendant of David through Yosef who was the natural father yet Yeshua/Isa was supposedly born through the virgin birth to Mariam. And nowhere in the Tanakh is a "virgin" birth prophesied anyway.

Secondly, He (The Moshiach) must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12), rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)

Thirdly, in the Tanakh there is a thing called "Olam Ha-Ba" which is like "The Messianic Age" read (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3), the world that the Moshiach will create when he arrives. It says in Isaiah 2:4 people will co-exist peacefully, there will be no wars, suffering, etc... will cease to exist. As said before, ALL of the Jews will return to Israel (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5) and EVERYONE in the world will recognize God as manifest in his existence, there will be no atheists or pagans or any of that (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9) furthermore there will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy and there will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13).

But all of this All of this is best put in the book of Ezekiel (chapter 37:24-28):

"And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."


Christians try to loophole this with the idea of a "second-coming" which is a completely foreign concept to any in the Tanakh.

What I understand you mentioned the stories in Bible were consistent, so I asked, "are you sure"?

I think I might have used the wrong word when I said "consistent", when I say "consistent" I mean it's a fluent story, it's not all-over-the-place like the Qur'an. But even so, I do agree that there's blatant inconsistencies (especially in relation to the New Testament contradicting Halakha over and over again, God just changed his mind it seems)

That's why Qur'an remain in it's original form, in classical Arabic language. I just read my employment contract, it says "This Agreement shall be published in English and **local languages** and in the event of a dispute arising out of the interpretation of the Agreement, the English version shall prevail". Assuming there is no English version what will happen? They will be many different interpretaion from employers and employees. So, is there Gospels in Aramaic? So how can you say the stories in the Gospels to be "coherent"? Likewise, you can only call Bible is as "Holy" if still in it's original form. Can you see the wisdom?

Actually, yes I can. You make a good point.
We all appreciate that you have taken the first step to explore other systems and ways of living. Insha Allah (God Willing) you will go further. My best wishes and do remember that this site is always open to those who genuinely seek!

Thanks Abu, you seem like a pretty cool cat.
 

BinteShafi

Left long ago
Why would a force of creation create it's creation simply to worship it?.

YES and this simple act of worship has been denied by trillion of people in spite of HIM sending warnings and Prophets again and again.

What is a "Jinn"?.

Jinn can be translated as spirits which is another creation of Allah who also live on this earth.

No I don't. I said this in my post thingo.

So you believe that there is a creator ........If yes then what exactly is your problem. Some kind of disagreement with HIM ? or because he is beyond your limited comprehension and you are unable to understand HIM ?

So if God is capable of anything why couldn't he have dictated the Qur'an to Muhammad in a way that could be translated into other languages or create some other kind of amazing text that the whole of humanity could read as beautiful poetry no matter which language? (I've only read about a quarter of the Qur'an so please excuse me if I appear ignorant)

YES HE is capable of everything. He could have created a whole humanity which would have never denied him....but HE choose not to do so...He gave reason and intellect to mankind and then sent his scripts so that they ponder and accept HIS oneness and worship him. There is no compulsion in the religion.

Majority of Muslims are non arab speaking. Thousands are becoming Muslims while reading translation in other languages.There are millions of people who do not speak arabic yet their hearts tremble with awe when verses of Quran are recited to them. There are many many Arab speaking but they have not accepted the message of Quran.

Believe me, every day I go to sleep hoping the next day I come closer to finding the truth.

It is not like you sleep with the hope and you would wake up with some sort of miracle. In your own words you have been shunned or pushed away by Muslims but still you are trying to seek truth....then Allah will surely help you to find a way out ....

Last thing...you said you have read about quarter a Quran and it is all over the place. Pls quote an example...
 

Kats

New Member
Jinn can be translated as spirits which is another creation of Allah who also live on this earth.

What are they though?

Last thing...you said you have read about quarter a Quran and it is all over the place. Pls quote an example...

I explained this in an earlier post, while the Tanakh and New Testament follow a fluent timeline, the Qur'an is completely scattered with different subjects in a seemingly non-fluent order.

Actually, I was reading just now that the actual coherent order of the Qur'an is this-

1 The Clot
2 The Pen
3 The Enshrouded One
4 The Cloaked One
5 The Opening
6 Palm Fibre
7 The Overthrowing
8 The Most High
9 The Night
10 The Dawn
11 The Morning Hours
12 Solace
13 The Declining Day
14 The Coursers
15 Abundance
16 Rivalry in Worldly Increase
17 Small Kindnesses
18 The Disbelievers
19 The Elephant
20 The Daybreak
21 Mankind
22 The Unity
23 The Star
24 He Frowned
25 Power
26 The Sun
27 The Mansions of the Stars
28 The Fig
29 Winter or Qureysh
30 The Calamity

Can anyone explain why the Qur'an was compiled like this? Did Gavriel tell Muhammad to throw them in the air and pile them together randomly just to confuse people?
 

Kats

New Member
So you believe that there is a creator ........If yes then what exactly is your problem. Some kind of disagreement with HIM ? or because he is beyond your limited comprehension and you are unable to understand HIM ?

Some kind of "lack of understanding" of the Qur'an, yes. I'm not about to give up time to learn to pray and do all those wonderful things Muslims just yet, I don't know enough to "revert".
 

saif

Junior Member
:salam2:

Peace be with you Kate. I will try to answer some of your questions below.

Sometimes I shrug and I'm content with the idea that the whole world is just one big absurd part of a crazy universe, but other times I get so muddled and frustrated that I don't know how this whole story started that I collapse into a big mess. I mean, where did matter and existence come from? non-existence can't exist, and space is expanding but what what is it expanding into? I'm not a very smart person, I mean, I'm the guy who "finally gets" a joke, half an hour later, but it just all seems so crazy. I've read the Tanakh and the "New Testament" and maybe it's just me but God seems so anthropomorphic and bordering on schizophrenia sometimes.

The original topics of Quran are to provide you guidance about life in this world, what will happen after death, how is your life in this world related to your life after death, what is nature of our relationship with God and with this world. Quran is not a book science and the scientific facts stated in Quran are just an indirect hint, while Quran is appealing the human intellect to think and find signs of God in Nature.

That fact, that by our human effort we cannot add even 1 atom to this universe or we cannot reduce one atom (unless we convert it to Energy), should give you a hint, that there must be a creator of this universe. So it's a very relavant question to ask, if existance could not come from non-existance, where did it then come from?

Finding the purpose of an expanding universe is clearly a topic for science and I am glad to leave as much for science as possible. One hint from religion is, though, that being Creator is a permanent substantive of God. We do not even have the reason to believe, that our universe is the only "existance", which God has created. And even in our small world, there are always new species coming into existance. In the words of Iqbal, a great Urdu-Poet:

Yeh kainaat abhi na tamaan he shaed,
keh har taraf a rahi he sada-e-kun fayakun
(This universe is perhaps in complete, so that the calls of "be and it is" are in the air). The words "be and it is" are taken from the Quranic verse: "whenever He decrees a matter, He just says "be" and it is".

That God seems anthropomorphic to you is not because of God being like that but it is because of our limitations to grasp things, which are not known to us in our human world. Even God's word Quran had to be revealed in clear and understandable and known arabic. So if such texts speak of "eyes" of the all-seeing, all knowing God, it is our human limitation that we imagine something like a human eye in our minds. But this is not a problem, as long as we understand, that it is beyond the scope of our understanding and God is explaining to us His divine being in the best possible way a human language can express it. A quranic verse sums it up "And there is none like unto Him" (in the creature).

It is slightly off the topic but it might help you understand, what I am trying to say. As a child, when I used to watch "star trek", I always wondered, why all those creatures on other planets have to be so dreadfully ugly. It was much later, that I realized, that it was because of our human limitation. We cannot even imagine a "better" creature than ourselves. By no means are we, or this whole universe a "white noise". We are a very well composed melody.


I'm reading the Qur'an at the moment as well, so many people hold this book to be God's word, and so many people are converting to Islam claiming that they found truth in this book but I just don't get it, I want to get it but I don't. I mean, at least the Bible was a coherent story, God might have been a bit of a tyrant here and there but this book is all over the place, before He was all smitin' and threatenin' but now it's all threatenin'- "Allah is awesome and you are scum, oh by the way, Allah will flick matches at you if you don't agree that anal sex is endorsed by this shaytan character (which by the way never appeared in the Tanakh and I think was probably a Christian creation), and don't you dare even think of questioning it you curious little kafir you" seems to sum up the first 70 odd pages. And why would God create people so they can throw themselves at him? Does he have some kind of authority complex? Don't get me wrong, I want to get it, I really do, I want to understand and feel this same revelation as all these other people in the world, I want to know that existence doesn't just exist, it had a beginning and a purpose. But at the moment I just don't.
And please don't tell me that you can't really "translate Allah's word" because that's absurd, if God required me to spend years learning a language just so I can learn that I have to throw myself at him to end up not burning for eternity, he would not be God. I don't know God, but if he is truly God he would not be culturally biased like this.

First of all, let me encourage you in your effort to read Quran. It was not only revealed for scholars to consult but it was also revealed for people like you and me to read and feel, what God is really telling us. I wonder though, how the God of Quran seems so harsh or tyrant to you. Don't you see verses, which talk about the mercy, the all-forgivingness and compassion of God. Does not every chaper of Quran start with "In the name of God most Gracious most Merciful"?

If God of Bible seems similar to you as God of Quran, then it testifies the Quran's claim, that Torah and Gospel are also from the same source (i.e. God). And if you see some differences, then we can try to resolve them in the light of His last book Quran.

There are translations of Quran available in almost every language. The only slight disadvantage is, that we are then reading the understanding of the translator of the Quran. Otherwise, there is no problem in translating Quran

God did not create people, who would throw themselves at him, no did he create Shaytan. He created human beings and jinns with free will, so that we can all see, who obeys Him and who does not. It is those human beings and jinns, who opt to be rebellious against God and thus they choose to become shaytan. So God did not create shaytan (evil). He created a Jinn with freedom of choice between good and bad.

I hope it helps. For more questions, feel free to pm me, if you want.

:wasalam:
 

BinteShafi

Left long ago
What are they though?



I explained this in an earlier post, while the Tanakh and New Testament follow a fluent timeline, the Qur'an is completely scattered with different subjects in a seemingly non-fluent order.

Actually, I was reading just now that the actual coherent order of the Qur'an is this-

1 The Clot
2 The Pen
3 The Enshrouded One
4 The Cloaked One
5 The Opening
6 Palm Fibre
7 The Overthrowing
8 The Most High
9 The Night
10 The Dawn
11 The Morning Hours
12 Solace
13 The Declining Day
14 The Coursers
15 Abundance
16 Rivalry in Worldly Increase
17 Small Kindnesses
18 The Disbelievers
19 The Elephant
20 The Daybreak
21 Mankind
22 The Unity
23 The Star
24 He Frowned
25 Power
26 The Sun
27 The Mansions of the Stars
28 The Fig
29 Winter or Qureysh
30 The Calamity

Can anyone explain why the Qur'an was compiled like this? Did Gavriel tell Muhammad to throw them in the air and pile them together randomly just to confuse people?

They live on this earth side by side of human...BUT we can not see them. I do not know much about Tanakh and New Testament (I do NOT accept their basic belief in fact) but I do know that these scripts have been changed by human hands (You would know that I am sure) So there is no point comparing them with Qur'an.

Quran was revealed into stages in 23 years and Allah would send the message as a response to some events, questions of people, or according to different situations Muslims had to confront with. I can not see any non-fluency in the Qur'an. You might have been having this problem because you would not be aware of the context (background reason of revealation) of the verses of Qur'an.

As far as compilation is concerned, this has been compiled exactly in a way as was instructed by Allah through Jebrael to Prophet SAW. It is true to the extent that very first revalation was from the chapter "The clot" but it was not the whole chapter.

My suggestion to you is that pls do not worry about the order of the chapters at this stage. If you have any confusion regarding the actual message of the Qur'an, you should ask.

Whoever seeks the path, Allah guides him towards HIS light.
 

Kats

New Member
God did not create people, who would throw themselves at him, no did he create Shaytan. He created human beings and jinns with free will, so that we can all see, who obeys Him and who does not. It is those human beings and jinns, who opt to be rebellious against God and thus they choose to become shaytan. So God did not create shaytan (evil). He created a Jinn with freedom of choice between good and bad.

Oh wow, I didn't know that shaytan was the name (or personification?) of evil. That's interesting.

Thank you so much Saif. You've really got me thinking about a lot of things but could you have a go at answering my posts -

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=350851&postcount=29

and here

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showpost.php?p=350861&postcount=31

I'd really appreciate it!
 

saif

Junior Member
dear brother kats,

The arrangment of verses in Quran is also divine. Because of poor translations they sometimes look unconnected to eachother but in fact, they are very well connected and well composed. Quran was and still is the best literature in arabic and like in a book of higher poetry, certain details are omitted and sometimes it is hard to understand.

Exegeses of Quran might help.

:wasalam:
 

saif

Junior Member

BinteShafi

Left long ago
Some kind of "lack of understanding" of the Qur'an, yes. I'm not about to give up time to learn to pray and do all those wonderful things Muslims just yet, I don't know enough to "revert".



If you believe that there is only one GOD who is creator of the heavens and earth and everything in between ...then rest will become very easy for you brother.... believe me.

To become Muslim you are not required at all to learn ENOUGH ...only you need to be sure that only Allah is worthy of worship and Muhammad peace be upon him is HIS Messenger

Allah! There is no God save Him, the Alive, the Eternal. Neither slumber nor sleep overtaketh Him. Unto Him belongeth whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Who is he that intercedeth with Him save by His leave? He knoweth that which is in front of them and that which is behind them, while they encompass nothing of His knowledge save what He will. His throne includeth the heavens and the earth, and He is never weary of preserving them. He is the Sublime, the Tremendous.

You only need to testify with your tongue, heart and soul that there is no God worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad peace be upon him is HIS messanger.

Pray is an imporatnt pillar of Islam but new reverts are not required to immidiately start praying in Arabic. Everything takes time and Allah is not unjust at all.

Peace and blessings be upon you brother. May Allah help you.
 
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