hijab is a question

[Ershad]

My family actually gives away between $50 and $100 of food a week that I find, that is thrown away by stores. So you can't really accuse me of waste (we also eat a lot of it ourselves). Getting the food involves a lot of climbing into dumpsters, which is one of the many reasons I need to wear clothing that lets me move around.

I never said about you. I said about the people around me. Look, you can be responsible voluntarily. But, the freedom that you mention, the excuse people use to be "irresponsible" towards the society. So just don't think of your behaviour, your perfectness etc.

It's a good idea if done voluntarily, but an extremely bad one, if forced. It's too likely to be taken advantage of by dishonest, lazy, and criminal people.

Wrong. What I am saying is be a example to people. Islam says "As a muslim, Fix yourselves first and you can fix the society." If you are good to them, they will feel ashamed of their laziness. Btw, there are genuine people who suffer by selfishness of your leaders. Don't call the children who die in Africa lazy.

I disagree, if a person has control over themselves, how other people dress will not make them lose control. Unless, that is secretly what they actually want to do, and are looking for an excuse to do so. If a person is not able to control themselves, then they aren't a sane adult, and they need to be locked up in an insane asylum, or otherwise need a keeper.

Again, you don't have the sense of responsibility. You can't expect all the people to have control. That is science. All people have different traits. Not the same. That is how they have been created. Fix yourselves, they will get fixed.

A person's behavior is their own individual responsibility.

Agree, but you should strive to fix it. Atleast a step. You cant expect all people to be the same. That is why hijab is a responsibility.

You assume that I'm interested in the opinions of stupid people, or in making them listen to me faster. I'm not. As I said, I wouldn't share my food with them. They had the same information available to them regarding the camping trip we were going on as I did. They chose not to utilize that information with their minds. Their problem, not mine.

Stupidness in your perspective. Ask them, they will call you stupid. I know you will say I don't care. Assume, men and women of the whole world become stupid, will it be still their problem? Will you tell your ideas to the walls? You don't think deep enough.

I disagree very strongly with that. I was smart enough to bring enough food on the trip for myself, for 2 weeks. I see no reason why I should have shared that food with others. So we could all starve together? So what happens the next time, if I starve myself to death for the benefit of other people? Doing so won't have made them any smarter, and they will just do something else stupid in the future and then die, because I won't be there to save them. So I will have died for nothing, basically. What's the point of that?

And again, this whole idea benefits the lazy and the criminal, at the expense of the honest and hard-working.

That is what I mean by setting an example. If you give them food today, maybe next time, they will reciprocate the same. They will help you when you are in hardship because you were kind. Some people have genuine reasons. Don't label everybody lazy. People have hearts.
Again, you don't think deep enough. Be an example. Fix yourself.

One more thing, don't think this as advice to you. I would say the same to those stupid men who discussed about how you look. If they had a sense of responsibility and lowered their gaze- I would appreciate that. Both men and women should be responsible.

 

[Ershad]

Regarding men controlling themselves, you hijab will help them do that. Attraction is a scientifically proven fact. If men see half naked women, they will be aroused. It takes willpower to abstain from thinking wrong or commenting. That is how they have been created. It is science. You cant feel it being an woman. And of course, Allah will reward those men who practice and fear Allah and abstain from doing any misdeeds even under those conditions and punish if they do. But, your hijab will make those tests of Allah easier for both men and women.

 

[Ershad]

One more thing. If above "opinions" don't appeal to you. Let me know if this fact appeals to you. As a man, I don't know what the problems of women are because I can't feel it. All my sisters gave their opinion as a woman and I gave mine as a man. As a woman, you don't understand or you don't feel our problem. I don't blame you for that, accept your inability just like I do as a man. For example, No matter how much woman explain how intense and painful labor pain is, I cannot understand the real immensity of it. Similar thing comes when it comes to make laws and regulations. It is to address problems of men and women. Men cant make laws for women and vice-versa. Both can't do it together because that results in conflicting laws and regulations. The person who makes laws should know both problems of men and women. He should be someone greater than both of them- In intelligence, virtue and understanding. Given the fact that there are no super-intelligent aliens that have been discovered, neither do I believe they exist, the logical person who can make the law is God and Sharia is the law of God and hence, of Islam. God asks you to be modest. If you don't understand it, it is your inability or you dont have enough intelligence to understand the purpose. If I don't understand something that God has asked me to do, it is my inability. I would understand that and follow it.

 

[IbnAdam77]

Salamualaykum

my dear brothers and sisters,

I hope you're all doing very well!--------------------------

You know those times where a non muslim asks why we wear hijab? And you answer them and you don't feel complete.....ya so I thought maybe you guys can help me by sharing you response to this question. It will help me very much!!

JazakAllahukhayran and salam!

Wa'alaikumussalam Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

Here is a thoughtful response inshaAllah!

Wassalam 'Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh

 

[Um Ibrahim]

Septithol:

You know what people wear matters! I don't know why you're denying that fact. You keep saying no one should tell anyone what to wear or how to dress, when people are being told what to wear and how to dress almost on a daily basis. Most people who hold "professional" jobs, have to dress in business suits and other professional clothes. Isn't this forcing people to dress in a certain way? Others who hold other types of jobs have some sort of dress code they have to follow. Tell me if you dress in whatever way you want to a job interview, and please be honest. We all know young girls and women are addicted to the latest fashions in New York, and other cities and countries around the world. How people dress and the image they present matter a lot. A woman dressed modestly and a woman who is wearing low-cut tank tops, and a mini-skirt will not be viewed the same by both men and women. You shouldn't find the hijab silly, because women who are covered up are that, covered up. No man will lust after us, and we Muslim women are not suffering the diseases that most-non-Muslim women suffer from, such as anorexia, bulimia, self-mutilation, and depression just to name a few all because they are obsessed with not looking good enough because they're constantly being judged on their appearance and the way the dress.

If the way people dress didn't matter so much, there wouldn't be multimillion dollar companies in the fashion and clothing industries. But we all know that what people wear is of importance and a big part of someones' identity. It's okay to have a different opinion or to say I don't understand why people would do this, but to just straight out deny the simple truth and say what people wear shouldn't matter to anyone, now that's silly because people do care about what others wear. And people are forced, every day, to wear clothes they don't want to wear whether it is done directly or indirectly whether it's for work, school, or peer pressure or whatever else, so if anyone deserves to be obeyed, it is the Creator of the worlds Whos' commandments must be obeyed.

That's all from me, this was my last message and I hope you some how understand what we all are trying to tell you--that is hijab is not silly, rather it protects, honors and puts the status of women higher.

 

[septithol]

ErshadAhamed: I actually find your opinion to be extremely informative, in a way. The manner in which you describe Islam sounds to me like a form of communism, but of morality, rather than economics. Communism is one of those things which sounds very attractive in theory, and works well on a small scale, if done voluntarily; but is a complete disaster, when done on a large scale, and/or forcibly.

The problem with communism, in the economic sense, is that it disregards human nature. Communism would work, if all people were honest and hardworking. However, not all people are. There are people who are lazy and dishonest. So under a communist economic system, the lazy and dishonest people do not work, but are rewarded anyways, out of the pay of the honest and hardworking people. This tends to either annoy, or exhaust the hard workers, who then stop working, and after that, the entire society degenerates to the level of the laziest and most dishonest people. The entire economy is now, in fact, controlled by however lazy and evil the worst people in it decide to be.

It is a fact that attempts to impose economic communism end up very often in mass murder, or other severe punishments. Since people have no good reason to work under communism, as everyone is economically responsible for everyone else, they must be frightened into working, by worse and worse punishments for not working. Not having at least some people work isn't an option, as at least some work needs to be done in order to have any money at all, to divide among everyone, regardless of whether they work or not. As you can't really kill off 100% of everyone in your country, generally this means that the least popular people are the ones doing the most work, and suffering the worst punishments.

Now, under what you describe to me regarding Islam, you say rather than being responsible for their own behavior, everyone is responsible for eachother's behavior, and must avoid doing things that tempt others to bad behavior. This sounds good in theory, but like Communism, is doomed to be an absolute disaster in reality. Because the honest and good people in Islam will go along with this, they will behave well, and try not to tempt others to evil. But the worst people will take complete advantage of such a system, they will use the idea that other people are responsible for their behavior, as an excuse to have no self-responsibility at all for their own behavior. They will behave very badly indeed, and find some small flaw in the behavior of others to blame for it. Thus, under such a system, the entire morals of the society are controlled by, and will degenerate to, the level of the least moral people in that society. It will also result in the least powerful or least popular people, suffering severe punishments, on the behalf of the bad behavior of others.

 

[Hard Rock Moslem]

Communism is like dust under my feet, do not compare with Islam. You better do more homework about Islam before you comment. I think it is very rude what you mentioned above.

 

[Ershad]

ErshadAhamed: I actually find your opinion to be extremely informative, in a way. The manner in which you describe Islam sounds to me like a form of communism, but of morality, rather than economics. Communism is one of those things which sounds very attractive in theory, and works well on a small scale, if done voluntarily; but is a complete disaster, when done on a large scale, and/or forcibly.

The problem with communism, in the economic sense, is that it disregards human nature. Communism would work, if all people were honest and hardworking. However, not all people are. There are people who are lazy and dishonest. So under a communist economic system, the lazy and dishonest people do not work, but are rewarded anyways, out of the pay of the honest and hardworking people. This tends to either annoy, or exhaust the hard workers, who then stop working, and after that, the entire society degenerates to the level of the laziest and most dishonest people. The entire economy is now, in fact, controlled by however lazy and evil the worst people in it decide to be.

It is a fact that attempts to impose economic communism end up very often in mass murder, or other severe punishments. Since people have no good reason to work under communism, as everyone is economically responsible for everyone else, they must be frightened into working, by worse and worse punishments for not working. Not having at least some people work isn't an option, as at least some work needs to be done in order to have any money at all, to divide among everyone, regardless of whether they work or not. As you can't really kill off 100% of everyone in your country, generally this means that the least popular people are the ones doing the most work, and suffering the worst punishments.

Now, under what you describe to me regarding Islam, you say rather than being responsible for their own behavior, everyone is responsible for eachother's behavior, and must avoid doing things that tempt others to bad behavior. This sounds good in theory, but like Communism, is doomed to be an absolute disaster in reality. Because the honest and good people in Islam will go along with this, they will behave well, and try not to tempt others to evil. But the worst people will take complete advantage of such a system, they will use the idea that other people are responsible for their behavior, as an excuse to have no self-responsibility at all for their own behavior. They will behave very badly indeed, and find some small flaw in the behavior of others to blame for it. Thus, under such a system, the entire morals of the society are controlled by, and will degenerate to, the level of the least moral people in that society. It will also result in the least powerful or least popular people, suffering severe punishments, on the behalf of the bad behavior of others.

Look, first of all, you haven't tried it. So don't tell me if it works or not, in practical. And Islam is not communism. I am not saying everyone is responsible for others completely. I am saying we still have a duty. The percentage varies. Islam has things from democracy but it is not democracy. Islam is Islam. It is different from everything else and you cant give any other label than Islam. And don't compare things with Islam without learning and understanding Qur'an. I don't know why you people pick individual things from Islam and give your opinion on it. It is a whole thing. You should see the whole picture. But of course, I don't know if you have enough ability to see the whole picture and imagine. Just because you cant, don't blame the system. It is perfect and practical. And without trying it, don't comment about it. You cannot be the judge of the system. We have seen your system (individualistic, imperialistic) and how "beautifully" (your morality, your logic) it works (get the sarcasm).

You strive to understand quantum physics, you strive to understand turbulence. Likewise, Strive to understand Qur'an and Islam, you will get your answers. Don't just comment from your preconceived ideas.
Not only is it unislamic, it is unscientific to comment or judge or conclude something without complete knowledge of it.

If you want to know more about how perfect our system is, read about the times of the caliphate especially during the period of Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) and Umar Ibn Al-Khattab (R.A.). It was the real Islamic system. Those were the glorious period. There was not a single fault you could find unlike the systems today.

Countries today who claim they implement Sharia, only implement aspects of it- a very few. Islam and Sharia is like a prescription. You cant take just few things that you like of it. For e.g. if you have an ailment and doctor prescribes you several medicines for it. You have to take them all to cure the disease. You can't omit one just because it is bitter.

Accept and Implement Sharia and Islam like that, you will see the results. Then you can come and comment here.

 

[septithol]

ErshadAhamed wrote:

Countries today who claim they implement Sharia, only implement aspects of it- a very few. Islam and Sharia is like a prescription. You cant take just few things that you like of it. For e.g. if you have an ailment and doctor prescribes you several medicines for it. You have to take them all to cure the disease. You can't omit one just because it is bitter.

That's entirely possible, I don't know enough about Sharia law to say whether or not the countries which seem to have made a mess of it have implemented the whole thing or not, and only implemented part of it.

However, regarding the question of omitting a pill because it is bitter, from the standpoint of an engineer, if the people using your machines do not like your engineering, they will not operate your machines correctly, and it means there is ultimately something defective about your engineering, because engineering must take into account not only whether machines work correctly in theory, but also whether or not people will want and be able to operate your machines correctly in the real world.

Thus - in the case of the pills, if a large percentage, or all of patients refuse to take a particular pill, there is something seriously wrong with the design of the pill, it is too large or too bitter or there is something about it making it very hard for many people to take, and it will not work in reality, regardless of how well it works in theory. It is pointless to blame the patients for this, the fact that so many patients refuse to take the pill means there is something very wrong with the design of the pill. It needs to be made smaller or less bitter. If the pill can't be made smaller or less bitter, or turned into an injection, or otherwise altered so that at least most patients will take it, it is flawed pill and a failure in the real world.

If you are designing a spinning wheel, and most of the workers refuse to use it because the pedals hurt their feet, the problem is with the design of the spinning wheel, and the engineer who designed it in that way, not with the workers.

A social system that for some reason people refuse to implement entirely, is flawed and a failure from that standpoint. As is one that requires 100% compliance, morality, hard work, and honesty on the part of 100% of all people. 100% of all people agreeing with anything is simply not possible, so any social system that requires that perfect degree of compliance will not work.

Which is one reason why freedom of religion works far better than a theocracy. However well a theocracy might work in theory, if everyone in a country is a complete believer in exactly the same religion, it will not work in the real world, because there is no country in the world where that perfect situation of everyone in a country agreeing 100% with the same religion exists.

Now, while Not everyone in any country is of the same religion, however, it is generally possible to get at least MOST people of MOST different religions to agree to practice their personal religion, and let others alone to practice a different religion. A theocracy is a different matter, regardless of the official religion of a theocracy, there are going to be at least some people of a different religion in that country (as well as athiests). Attempting to force those of a different religion (or athiests) to comply with the 'official' religion of that country will result in a very large amount of disagreement. Thus, your social engineering will not work well.

 

[Ershad]

ErshadAhamed wrote:

That's entirely possible, I don't know enough about Sharia law to say whether or not the countries which seem to have made a mess of it have implemented the whole thing or not, and only implemented part of it.

However, regarding the question of omitting a pill because it is bitter, from the standpoint of an engineer, if the people using your machines do not like your engineering, they will not operate your machines correctly, and it means there is ultimately something defective about your engineering, because engineering must take into account not only whether machines work correctly in theory, but also whether or not people will want and be able to operate your machines correctly in the real world.

Thus - in the case of the pills, if a large percentage, or all of patients refuse to take a particular pill, there is something seriously wrong with the design of the pill, it is too large or too bitter or there is something about it making it very hard for many people to take, and it will not work in reality, regardless of how well it works in theory. It is pointless to blame the patients for this, the fact that so many patients refuse to take the pill means there is something very wrong with the design of the pill. It needs to be made smaller or less bitter. If the pill can't be made smaller or less bitter, or turned into an injection, or otherwise altered so that at least most patients will take it, it is flawed pill and a failure in the real world.

Islam has 1.57 billion adherents, making up 23% of the world population and it is the fastest growing religion in the world (According to your media as well). So the defective pill is your system. The reason why Islam is growing so fast is people have started to read and understand Qur'an and realize its importance, authenticity and practicality. Since you don't do that (you don't even try the pill), you won't know.

If you are designing a spinning wheel, and most of the workers refuse to use it because the pedals hurt their feet, the problem is with the design of the spinning wheel, and the engineer who designed it in that way, not with the workers.

Let's think it this way, whoever invented/created the spinning wheel, however it is, isn't it logical that he knows the most about the product? God created you and Islam is the religion he created for you because he knows the best for you and about you-more than yourself.

A social system that for some reason people refuse to implement entirely, is flawed and a failure from that standpoint. As is one that requires 100% compliance, morality, hard work, and honesty on the part of 100% of all people. 100% of all people agreeing with anything is simply not possible, so any social system that requires that perfect degree of compliance will not work.

So, you agree that you people don't have compliance, morality, hard work and honesty. It has worked before like I said during the period of Prophet Muhammad S.A.W and Umar Ibn Al-Khattab R.A. I can say a lot of reforms that they pioneered which exist still today for e.g. scholarship for studies. Even today, studies in Saudi Arabia is free of cost, in fact, they pay the students to study.

Which is one reason why freedom of religion works far better than a theocracy. However well a theocracy might work in theory, if everyone in a country is a complete believer in exactly the same religion, it will not work in the real world, because there is no country in the world where that perfect situation of everyone in a country agreeing 100% with the same religion exists.
Now, while Not everyone in any country is of the same religion, however, it is generally possible to get at least MOST people of MOST different religions to agree to practice their personal religion, and let others alone to practice a different religion. A theocracy is a different matter, regardless of the official religion of a theocracy, there are going to be at least some people of a different religion in that country (as well as athiests). Attempting to force those of a different religion (or athiests) to comply with the 'official' religion of that country will result in a very large amount of disagreement. Thus, your social engineering will not work well.

Again, do you have proof it won't work? I have proof of the time when it worked. You make big, tall claims. I don't see any "scientific" reason in your argument. From what I read, you are just biased because you "think" it is not right or it won't work.

 

[Ershad]

Moreover, let me tell you the incorrect reasoning you are making, the thing you said about 100% people being 100% good. That is the purpose of Islam. But that doesn't mean once Sharia is implemented, everyone turns good the next second. For e.g., every company works towards zero defects in their products, and it improves with time. It is not magic. It is takes time. It is a slow process. Most of them will be 100% good and rest of them can be fixed by education, warning and finally punishment. Well, that is how every system works, if you don't abide by rules, you are punished. And since, there are already 23% of population muslim, and still growing, consider a time when it is, say 75% of population. Isn't it logical then, to change everything to Sharia, and give education of Islam to rest 25%, make them understand. And if they don't abide by Sharia, punish them? That is what your system and every system does too. And in a country with majority muslims, Sharia can be implemented for the same reason.



P.S. Since we are straying out of the topic of discussion, I request you to argue anything pertaining to "hijab". I have given all my arguments and reasoning before.