The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by Aziboy, May 16, 2012.

  1. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    After editing your post, you say:
    Explain what these situations are:

    In what situation do the full brothers get some inheritance?

    And in what situation do the full brothers get no inheritance?
  2. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Aziboy, I think that Albani reference really hurt you, didn't it? Be honest with us and please tell the world he went against Quran and Sunnah in Taqleed. That's all I'm asking.

    After that, you can delete him from your posts, just like you deleted al-`Uthaymeen.

    I really don't know what you are all about. I visited the SPUBS website. Even they have articles that oblige Taqleed on people like you:
    http://www.spubs.com/sps/sp.cfm?secID=MNJ&subsecID=MNJ06&loadpage=displaysubsection.cfm

    Lone warrior, is there a website in the world that agrees with you in anything you are saying?

    That's a start. Stay on this website. Either you'll convert one day from your current Mu`tazilism, or you'll grow to hate this forum even more. Your choice.
  3. Aziboy
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    Aziboy Banned

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    Are you done with ur craps?

    Now ask your so called scholars about the above and revert if u r truthful?

    Albani reference really hurt you?

    Do you really think I am reading every crap that you right? hahaha no question of hurting at all

    Either you'll convert one day from your current Mu`tazilism

    Are you are trying to promote and do Dawah about the deen of ur forefathers here? Again I know you have got no answer rather than crap crap crap !

    I was wrong earlier, you are neither an average entertainer but a BIG blind follower.

    Put more crap of urs, who cares
  4. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Even if you are right for a milisecond - even though there is no doubt you are on Batil and on a mission to appease your own Nafs - nobody would ever accept what you have to stay due to your stinking attitude.

    If you claim to champion the cause of the Quran and Sunnah, then the Quran and Sunnah themselves will testify against you on the Day of Reckoning for driving people away from the Haqq due to your immature, filthy rhetoric. You talk as if there is no Qiyamah, or you won't be held to account. Remember the Hadith about the tongue and how it lands people in Jahannam.

    You are void of Ihsan and Tazkiyah. I'd start there if I were you. You probably don't even know Fatihah with Tajweed, or how to do Istinja according to the Sunnah. I guess you have no idea how many Fara'idh there are in Wudu and Salah, the difference between Rukn and Wajib in Salah.

    When you go Hajj, realise that the Imams of the Haramayn are on the Madhhab of Imam Ahmad, and are students - directly or indirectly - of al-`Uthaymeen and Albani. You will be reading Salah behind these 'deviants'. Good luck.


    You still haven't told us which opinion is correct: Do the brothers get any inheritance from their germane (full) sister or not - in the presence of the deceased sister's uterine (half) brothers (i.e. same mother only)?

    One is right, one is wrong, according to you. Tell us which one is right according to Quran and Sunnah.


    The case study of a woman dying and leaving behind:
    - her husband
    - her father
    - her mother
    - half brothers
    - her full brothers
    came about only in the time of the Sahabah. There is NO Hadith on this. Umar bin ''l-Khattab changed his opinion from 'no inheritance' to 'inheritance' for the full brothers. The Hanafis and Hanbalis took the first opinion; the Malikis and Shafi`is took the second opinion.

    So who is right according to you? Hanafis and Hanbalis? Or Shafi`is and Malikis? Enlighten us with your understanding.

    Or are you telling us that this case study has nothing to do with the Deen of Allah, because it came 'afterwards'?

    I'll tell you what came afterwards: the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites. A few centuries later, you came along.


    I think this thread has been more of a lesson for you than anybody else. You now hate both al-`Uthaymeen and Albani, and you have nowhere to hide to save face except spit out more insults. You posts look ugly in all honesty.


    Like you, who loves copy-pasting - then deleting.


    What's that got to do with Taqleed?
  5. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    I'd take that Shimagh and Iqal man off your avatar if I were you - nobody from Saudi supports your anti-Taqleed crusade.

    Better off replacing it with a true Mu`tazilite:

    [​IMG]

    I'm done with you. Say what you want to say. If it's nothing substantial, I would advise the moderators to ban you. Readers can make their minds up for what you are. This thread is a testimony against your antics.

    Now to Hammy...
  6. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Allah tells you that such people end up as Kafirs, not Muqallids. You go against the Quran yet again.

    وأما الذين في قلوبهم مرض فزادتهم رجسا إلى رجسهم وماتوا وهم كافرون (Al-Tawbah)

    Check the Tafseer. Oh wait:
    Tough luck.

    Since the Shariah is in Arabic (not Punjabi), you can still not verify what any scholar is telling you, because the translation of the Shariah is not Shariah. You will forever be a blind follower. Very sorry to break to you the harsh reality. You are, essentially, a stumped Muqallid.


    Well that's you and Aziboy, Imams of copy-pastes that got you nowhere. Islam has a dynamic legal system which is not stagnant, thanks to the efforts of the scholars. Ever since the Prophet (peace be upon him) passed away, the process of Ijtihad in new cases started.

    I presented to Aziboy the case study of the Musharrikah sceanrio of inhertiance - there is no clear verse or Hadith therein. How do you solve that riddle? Enlighten us in light of Kitab and Sunnah. Spare us your insults for a change.


    OK he is obliged to give you evidence. But evidence is in Arabic. He is not obliged to give you a translation. Also, he is not obliged to give you anything at all if he feels you would become confused. Since you are a confused individual, I would advise any person to deprive you of evidence, since you don't deserve it. You should focus on cleaning your heart first and stop thinking ill of other Muslims.


    So a layman must investigate? Is that what you are saying? Does your whole family know from Kitab and Sunnah how to do Istinja? Or do they just clean themselves? Let's start from there, shall we?


    No, the main point is that a layman identifies a trustworthy scholar, who would point out to the layman that there are matters in Deen that are Aqeedah (fundamentals). Laymen are only obliged to identify a scholar who would tell them this. And by the way, following a scholar in matters of fundamentals is not called Taqleed, because the domain of Taqleed is in non-fundamentals only.


    I thought about giving you a proper answer, but then I thought against it, because it is beyond your comprehension. So what I will now tell you is that you shouldn't become a Shi`ah, but you should become a Mu`tazilite as you have proven yourself to be all along. The term is in the Quran:
    وَأَعْتَزِلُكُمْ وَمَا تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ (Maryam)

    So don't worry about taking the path of the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites. Just make sure you let everyone know that you are reviving their creed from scratch.


    Are you joking? Another copy-paste? From the Saudi Lajnah!?

    Do you even know what they say on Taqleed? I think you know by now that they too oppose you.

    Understand this well: you are a nobody, and nobody supports you.

    I await your final response to the above. I personally don't think you should be banned though.
  7. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Hammy I thought you would have repented from lying (from the previous thread) and stopped lying. But you still carry on to lie.

    And I thought you would have changed yourself from your foul mouth, but you don't seem to. Remember the apology you PM'd me:

    So tell me, you haven't had food properly last night as well? Is this your excuse again? You and Aziboy have a filthy mouth and you guys need to learn to control it.

    Clearly from the above discussions, it is as clear as day light that you both are feeling intellectually intimidated. Thus, you guys are resorting to this filthy language of yours.

    You are only exposing your true colours on a public forum and remember that these words will be held here in this very thread for the future. For people to come back to and witness your poor behaviour.

    Aziboy, whenever you post reminders or other beneficial posts- people will have a bad image about you and will find it hard to absorb the good you spread in other threads. And this is mainly due to the bad behaviour you have shown here.

    I hope you go to bed in peace- now that you believe that Allaah had left the ummah upon misguidance for 1400 years and has finally guided you. Oh yes, according to you shaykh Ibn `Uthaymeen is a deviant- please make sure you don't post any of his stuff in future nor of any other saudi scholar.
  8. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Br. HH. I edited the mistakes (which I spotted) in your last post. If I made any mistakes do let me know.

    Br. HH, Hammy will have to google the term Isinja as he has never come across you it. The (simple) terminologies are well above their intellectual capacities.

    I am assuming that Hammy actually doesn't know who the Mu`tazilah are and will have to google it to find out.
  9. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Thariq, check my PM (assuming that we are two different people - Hammy thinks this is all an elaborate game on your part, with one person playing two members lol).

    Once this is done and dusted, I'll go back and see what I can do with the sensible questions made by ther other posters.
  10. samiha
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    Aziboy has been banned for his appalling behavior in this thread. I gave him a chance last night in hopes that today he would approach the topic with an open mind, but that was not the case. Instead, we find many unnecessary insults, an abhorrent attitude, and lack of any indication that he is thinking about what is being said. This is not the attitude promoted here, nor the way to derive a productive discussion, and I'm sure this could go on for numerous more pages and we'd surround the same points (as is evidenced).

    May Allah reward you brother Harris Hammam for trying, I truly appreciate it, and pray other misconceptions were corrected.

    I'm giving Hammy temporary respite, as you are discussing with him. If however I see the same behavior, in which the discussion is avoided in favor of insults and empty rhetoric - the same will be applied.
  11. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Seems Hammy has gone cold. All the better - perhaps Aziboy was his Fitnah.

    Let's first rattle through some principles very briefly and quickly on Adab 'l-Khilaf - the etiquette of differing in Fiqh.

    Ibn `Abd 'l-Barr, the famous Maliki scholar, said in his al-Tamheed, a Hadith-based commentary on Imam Malik's al-Muwatta':

    سئل القاسم بن محمد عن القراءة خلف الإمام فيما لم يجهر به؟

    فقال: إن قرأت فلك في رجال من أصحاب محمد رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم أسوة، وإذا لم تقرأ فلك في رجال من أصحاب رسول الله أسوة


    Al-Qasim bin Muhammad [one the Seven Great Madani jurists in the time of the Tabi`een] was asked about reading being the Imam in a Salah where the Imam does not read aloud.

    He replied: If you read, then you have precedent amongst men within the Companions of Muhammad (peace be upon him); if you do not read, then you have precedent amongst men within the Companions of Muhammad (peace be upon him).



    This proves a few things:
    1. Differences occurred in the Sahabah
    2. A person who follows any such opinion with a strong following cannot be labelled as a misguided person.
    3. A layman does not have to rigidly adhere to one particular opinion, or Imam, or school (This is with the a few conditions). If one adheres out of one's choice, that is his/her choice that cannot be forced over others.
    4. There is no point arguing about such matters. (One can however discuss these academically and calmly in circles of knowledge)
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    The only job of the layman is find a trustworthy, pious scholar. That is why the scholars say that the fatwa of a Mufti is the evidence for a layman, just like Shariah evidence is for a Mujtahid. This is clear from the texts of Usool: الفتاوى للمقلد كالأدلة للمجتهد

    Some took this maxim more literally than others - they said that a layman must do Tarjeeh between conflicting fatwas and Muftis, like a Mujtahid does between evidences.

    However, a larger chunk of Usoolis said that this is not necessary, and he can take any scholar and does not always have to take the best scholar. Their evidence is that the Sahabah used to ask their Muftis for fatwas - not all of them turned up at the Khulafa's doorstep for fatwas, but rather they asked any available Mufti amongst the Sahabah. Supporting this, al-Qarafi said in his al-Dhakhirah:
    انعقد الإجماع على أن من أسلم فله أن يقلد من شاء من العلماء من غير حجر، وأجمع الصحابة رضوان الله عليهم على أن من استفتى أبا بكر وعمر رضي الله عنهما أو قلدهما فله أن يستفتي أبا هريرة ومعاذ بن جبل وغيرهما ويعمل بقولهما من غير نكير، فمن ادعى رفع هذين الإجماعين فعليه الدليل
    So there is a double Ijmaa` on the notion that a questioner can ask any scholar without restriction.

    In this second more dominant opinion, the maxim الفتاوى للمقلد كالأدلة للمجتهد (Fatwas for Muqallids are on the level of evidences for a Mujtahid) simply means that once a Muqallid has a fatwa from a trustworthy scholar, he does not need to look further into real evidences.

    The topic of whether a layman can ask a scholar for the evidence for his personal contentment is a separate discussion. In a nutshell, its up to the Mufti's estimation and whether he feels the questioner will understand or will become confused. This is clear from the Usooli texts as well. Read, for example, al-Subki's Jam` 'l-Jawami`.

    Also, the topic of the opinion of 'the necessity of following only one scholar, or only one Madhhab', deserves a separate discussion. This is not the place for that.



    That's an oxymoron, if a guy is a layman, then that automatically means he has no comprehension of what is Saheeh and what isn't. If the scholar makes a mistake, the layman is excused in the eyes of Allah. The layman did all he could do in arriving at the law of Allah, just like a Mujtahid.

    The main question is when scholars make potentially serious mistakes. We'll try to investigate that next.
  13. Hammy
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    Hammy Banned

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    It would be not fitting on my part that I shall leave without informing... Pls Note, if you guys are refuting to what i'll say now, (and try to become a "Hero" and turn out to be a fool) that would be vain cuz i am deleting my account from TTI...

    I said Allah will increase your doubt and end up being Muqallid, just because i dont want to say Kafir, but an Aqeeda like this... no comments.... i think you should change this page name to Turn To Muqallid... or Blind Following... it suits better as people here, in the name of Islam deceiving others... especially the new reverts.. BEWARE!!!!

    Samiha... you did a gr8 job by banning brother Aziboy.. simply you have shown your incompetence to prove your blind following here and well thanx for giving me respite...

    Harris hamman or thariq.. whatever.... "Cockeyed among the Blinds"!!! well, the Mu`tazilism of Baghdad, who are they and what they did i dont wanna waste my time in finding and searching for them you can easily find the contradictions between the Blind following Madhab which you promote and the teachings of Prophet (saww) why going too far??? I am not wasted like you, coming with Cheap Insults... 1st your False belief of following any 1 madhab... than your negativity in grave questions... than you said a filthy thing about Istinja.... Nauzubillah!!!! dude.. you point out my family and to prove your point you went to the extreme level of Satanic Egoism... In-sha-Allah, Allah will hold you for this.... than your point than you shown my PM to all here.... I was guilty of my fault but now its your fault but instead giving me suitable explanation you coming up with this, than May Allah (swt) will bring forth your shameful deed on the day of Qiyamah.... this shows where you coming from...

    I am off from here, may Allah (swt) increase your disease in doubting and you guys in the name of scholars, challenging Allah and His Book and His Prophet (saww) sayings... still not enough, than wait.. i am too waiting... as Allah (swt) is the Best to Decide!!!!
  14. samiha
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    samiha --------- Staff Member

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    Go on then Hammy, you seem to be leaving when you can't answer real questions. You have yet to have said what is Furoo', who are the Mu`tazilah, how a layman can tell saheeh hadeeth from others etc...

    Your posts, as every single member who reads this thread objectively will see, have been full of just emotional outbursts. And now when it's become too difficult, and you have nobody to support you, all of a sudden it's "I'm leaving TTI" ... This is a very bad trait. Instead of acknowledging what you don't know, you not only throw around insults, slander and accusations then run away. This is not the signs of a Muslim seeking to learn.

    Not only that, but then you bring up Takfeer!

    A'uthubillah. Out of your desire to not be labelled a Muqallid, now you're essentially doing Takfeer. What right have you to judge Aqeedah, when clearly this discussion was not even about that?

    This, my brothers and sisters - is from the pitfalls of being a self-made scholar. It begins with issues of fiqh and spreads to issues far greater than that, as everyone knows that if a person pronounces takfeer and it is incorrect, what the outcome of it is.

    Quit the dramatics. New users should beware far more of you - as you clearly are showing here that you do not base your replies on anything but emotion and self conjecture. You did not reply to one question asked of you on here - not even one properly, and yet you go around claiming you can know when a scholar speaks right or wrong, or that you don't follow them and instead follow Qur'an and Sunnah only.

    Yes I did; I'm glad you appreciate it. This site is meant to be for clearing misconceptions, not about allowing anyone to say whatever they wish and go around in circles in a discussion for pages on end. Everyone can see on which end the incompetence lies here.

    Anyone see the irony here?

    Here's this person making fun of others for being 'blind' when he doesn't even know who the Mu`tazilah are, and refuses to find out. And this is even more ironic because of the claims that he can judge the Qur'an and Hadeeth - when even lacking basic fundamentals in what is being said in this conversation.

    Cheap insults. Also very ironic.

    Which was answered, and you were given questions you never replied to. Do you know what it furoo' means still?

    ... And have you studied any of the first chapters of any fiqh book at all? I don't see anything filthy having been said.

    I do however know that this debate was definitely far more than you had expected, and I hope it will help to humble you to seeing the truth and that even if you leave, that you'll one day look back and realize your mistakes.
  15. finding light
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    finding light Ya Rab! Forgive me..

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    Asalamualykum,
    I completely agree that the language and attitude thrown around on this thread has been appauling, unIslamic and unproductive.
    But really was there such a need to ban Aziboy??? Why didnt you just close the thread? If you look at all his other threads he provides a lot of very important and useful information which personally has helped me a lot.

    I hope you will be back Aziboy - a little calmer and more modest.
  16. samiha
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    samiha --------- Staff Member

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    The rest seems clear alhamdulillah, but I was wondering what conditions might be referred to here?

    This would be good to hear. In fact, I really think a proper book on Taqleed in English should be translated.

    I know there's ongoing work on "Principles for the Non-Mujtahid" going on here : http://abuqutaybah.wordpress.com/principles-of-the-non-mujtahid/

    - which is great and I think that too should be compiled and published when finished, but really brother - I know you've got many projects on hand, but these forum discussions are really good and beneficial, but I think far more would be English translations of some of these classical texts, or information on it somehow compiled well. I say this because many of the English books, even published by well known publishing companies are notoriously anti-taqleed, and continue to propagate some of these odd views. So an academic work I think would be invaluable in this era.

    Just a thought.
  17. finding light
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    finding light Ya Rab! Forgive me..

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    And there has been a lot of provoking and sarcasm by the mods themselves. I dont think you guys did a good job at containing the contents of this thread. Usually when arguments start you shut the thread down, but this one was fuelled by all its participants.
  18. samiha
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    wa'alaykum salaam wa rahmatullah

    Sister, do you think it's fair or correct if a person steals and gives charity? A wrong and a right does not make overall good in this sense.

    Closing this thread would not have taught Aziboy anything in this case, rather all it would have done is shut down a discussion from which there is quite a bit of benefit (despite all the side-tracking and unproductive issues). There is potential for this to become quite a good academic thread, and for us to all learn and gain something.

    Did you go through this thread and benefit from none of it ukht? If you have questions regarding anything, now would be a good time to ask.

    And if Aziboy wishes to return, once his ban expires he's free to do so, and we hope he will have learned from it. In the meantime sister, don't rely on any one person for benefit here - but partake in it yourself - in whatever way possible insha'Allah.
  19. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    This is so very true!

    This is what happens when a person with no knowledge starts to believe that he has knowledge. Imagine a world full of heart surgeons who have never formally studied medicine at all and are performing surgeries based on their readings from Google!


    Quite sad for hammy, he was the guy who was very bold in making challenges (in the previous thread):

    Hammy was taking desperate measures by insulting muslims and he did all this to become a 'Hero':
  20. samiha
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    samiha --------- Staff Member

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    This may be true to an extent, but let me ask you this - if you love the Deen of Allah subhanhu wa ta'ala, would you not want to protect it from wayward statements and conceptions?

    We may be sometimes at fault for being harsh, offended or emotional, but imagine sister - if you see in front of you a young boy, who has never studied medicine suddenly begin giving out medicine to people, or diagnosing them, and then creating prescriptions based on his google searches, and you can see this person potentially harming many others with his work - and after trying to speak to him with rationale, showing him why what he are doing is incorrect, only have him spit back at you and continue on his way, do you think you would then just leave this person alone?

    No, by Allah if you had any fear for the people he was giving medicine to, you would warn them of his ignorance, of his status, and speak against this action, and do your best to bring the truth to light, even if this means being a little harsh.

    And I have to say, this isn't the first thread this has happened in. I've come across two or three, and maybe you have too.

    Tell me, what was the outcome of closing it? Only to have them pop up in another thread and bring in the same issues and speak with the same ignorance. So forgive us for any harshness, but it was high past time that these issues were not hidden away and closed, but discussed FULLY.

    And I for one am glad, walhamdulillah.

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