The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by Aziboy, May 16, 2012.

  1. Hammy
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    Crazy guy is so desperate to make edit/changes in his post that he is increasing it with insane stuff... where did i copy paste??? I am only asking questions instead you are coming with copy paste stuff from IA, i think thats a Hanbali Madhab web page and thanx for your kind advise for violating Qur'an, i wonder a BLIND FOLLOWER saying all this... really sick... obviously for a Muqallid my questions will be crazy stuff as you said for hanafi madhab quotes as non-madhab... obviously when it comes to desires, people do wild things... and dont bother about my grave questions in the least bro, I have faith in Allah (swt) and enough is Allah to record this sick statemnt of yours... what kind of Muslim you are??? you not even eligible to answers my questions, cuz BLIND FOLLOWERS are like BEGGARS, and BEGGARS ARE NOT CHOOSERS!!!! so don't ask us funny questions.... however you can keep blabbering your thoughts and keep increasing your posts so poor chap can edit it... :lol:
  2. Abu Talib
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    HH please share with us Shah Waliullah Rahima`ullah works on Taqleed.

    Also please it would really good to give a small intro about your self so people could know who they are dealing with.
  3. Abu Talib
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    I know your doing a great job of exposing Muqalids and trying to prove Taqleed is haraam which none of the greatest Muhadiths could do so your exceptional. However please maintain mannerism and don't resort to bickering when you can't answer straightly.
  4. Hammy
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    Oh please.. i am not proving it wrong i am just asking "why"? which you guys continuously failing to answer and coming up with blaming stuff.... and you telling me to maintain mannerism??? and others can say whatever they feel like but it is me who cant answer str8... nice childish approach of favoring your people Huh!!!
  5. Abu Talib
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    If you read with open mind the whole thread then your answer to your ''why'' is definitely there. To your mannerism you know what you have called everyone who doesn't agree with you.
  6. samiha
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    samiha --------- Staff Member

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    I'm editing this post just because the rest is just peppered with insinuations and insults. People are getting sick and tired of your attitude and name calling Hammy. I'm forewarning you, this site does maintain certain standards when it comes to discussion. Should you violate that once more and decide not to speak to our members with basic respect due, and academically - then there may be repercussions.

    You have been called out on the way you have spoken with ignorance and arrogance, but have not been spoken to in the same tone you are addressing others.

    Aziboy seems to be attempting to clear his confusions, and the last two posts have seen improvement. I hope you too take a similar route and calm down.

    As for your grave question, here was the reply :

    Here's a question for you Hammy, be honest, when you are told Taqleed is about Furoo' - do you understand what that means?

    What is Furoo'? Please do explain to us that you are at least understanding what is being said. If you do not know what is being said, instead of calling it crazy, or sick, or calling others beggars for your failing points - ask and learn.
  7. Ershad
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    Ershad Junior Member

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    Assalamu Alaikkum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu,

    Brother Hammy, If you are going to belittle/ignore my post, I won't be surprised. Because, you chose to do that to the posts by people who conveyed knowledge about Taqleed from Scholars. I am nowhere compared to the posters before me. Probably that will give you the answer "why".

    I wish I was knowledgeable enough to verify what the scholars give me. But, you have to know the reality. The majority of the Ummah will not be able to do this. But, we all desire to follow what Allah and the Messenger has commanded us to do. That is why, doing taqleed helps us and becomes obligatory for us. Shaytaan's traps are everywhere. If I, like you, chose to verify the fatwa of the scholars in the matters of fiqh (with the little knowledge that I have), I might fall into some trap of Shaytaan. We seek knowledge. Of course, we should. But, it doesn't come overnight. Yes, we are intelligent. That is why we do taqleed of people whom we consider trustworthy and are respected by rest of the Ummah. This is because they are the warathat ul anbiyaa (the inheritors of the Prophets).

    The Prophet sall Allaahu alaiyhi wa sallam said:

    The scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets.

    Hadeeth of Aboo Dardaa radi Allaahu ‘anhu reported by al Bukhaaree in a mu’allaq form and declared saheeh by Shaykh al Albaanee rahimahumullaah.

    Indeed, the scholars come after the Companions in terms of their high station and excellence.

    The Prophet (saw) said:

    “…Knowledge will be removed by the death of the scholars…” [Saheeh]

    Shaykh Umar Bazmool said : "The scholar possesses fiqh, knowledge-based aptitude, and skill that aids him in extracting religious verdicts (fataawaa). When a calamity occurs, he is able to expeditiously extract the religious verdict, teach it, and spread it among the people. Explaining the religious verdict (fatwaa) of this calamity along with this aptitude and skill does not come from simply reading books during a calamity. Rather it comes from years of experience and discourse with the scholars."

    We, as laymen, find ourselves in different situations everyday and we want to make decisions according to legislations of islam. It is very difficult and impossible, to analyse all the opinions and evidences, as a layman. Now, we have internet, we can get access to fatawaa of scholars. But, internet is not for seeking knowledge. For, there is both evil and good in internet. And we are in the danger of not differentiating between them. And if you really, knew how the Scholars sought knowledge in the past and probably in the times of Imam Bukhaari, Imaam Ahmad or Imam Abu Hanifah, you would realize how much you have taken seeking knowledge so lightly.

    If you make this big obligation of verifying the verdicts and comparing and checking with evidence, I might be doing that for the rest of my life and someone else should take care of my rest of the responsibilities.

    Just contemplate on what I said. and think "why is taqleed necessary". How can you obligate something so burdensome on people ? We don't do taqleed with the intention of differing from someone or to do arguments. We do taqleed to have a guidance and we do it with the intention of following the Qur'an and Sunnah. And the scholars help us with that since they are the best of the ones living in Taqwa. We do not revere them for academic titles, but for their taqwa and manners.

    Baarakallahu feekum and JazakumAllahu khayran brother Harris , Thariq and sister Samiha.

    Asalaamu alaikum wa hayakum Allah
  8. al-fajr
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    Assalamu'alaykum,

    Honestly treading on thin ice. Both yours and Aziboys behaviour in this thread has been utterly appalling and I'm afraid of allowing double standards by keeping silent.

    I closed a previous thread for much less than what you've got away with here, the only reason with which I've justified allowing the two of you to stick around, is that I think you might benefit by learning a thing or two.

    He did aswell, I'm not really surprised though.

    Aziboy, is admitting you're mistaken really too painful a thing to do? Does it really hurt your ego to the point you'd much rather re-define the framework of discussion to suit yourself, save face, rather than humbly accept? Not that the alternative you posted does much for your case either.

    Think about that for a moment.

    Reassess your intentions before posting again, I have a good mind to restore the original version of your post.
  9. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    When we discuss Taqleed, then of paramount importance is that we maintain respect for the scholarly efforts of the past giants of Islam in knowledge. Your anti-Taqleed attitude means that you blame them for deceiving the whole Ummah! You yourself claimed that they made a mistake. Why did you edit out al-`Uthaymeen from the opening post? Is this your respect for Islamic scholarship?


    Enormous amount of study? Ever heard of Abu Bakr and Bilal? A person is given guidance with the Tawfeeq of Allah, not enormous amounts of study, pal. Our religion is for all mankind, and it does not need enormous amount of study for it to manifest itself as the truth. This enormous amount of study you are referring to smacks of the 'Kalami Maturidi' position, thats states one must to Nazar to accept Islam!


    Yeh look whose talking. We side with the scholars, you sided with the Mu`tazilites of Baghdad. Why are you calling us towards their method? I just don't get it. Why are you defending them?


    You see, that is why I gave you NINE usages of the term Taqleed and their different meanings. When you read a classical text, you need to understand what meaning the author was intending when using the term. Go and read that post again. For example, when Imam al-Shafi`i said that 'only Taqleed of the Prophet is allowed', or you going to say this meaning of Taqleed is Haram too!?

    You need to study brother by a Sheikh, not on the Internet and end up copy-pasting other out of blind Taqleed. I think there is a growing consensus that you are doing the worst form of Taqleed by copy-pasting blindly.


    All the quotes are referenced and readily available. Just because you didn't know of them before doesn't mean they don't exist. You should grab on to this new information with both hands, not doubt it. Why are you doing your utmost to cling to your own opinion anyway! If you claim you don't do Taqleed (like a made Mujtahid), the first thing you need is an open mind and a comprehension of what the other side is saying. You don't even possess this.


    Once again, you imply that only you are following Kitab and Sunnah and all the scholars of Islam somehow went against it. What type of Islam are you calling new Muslims towards? Your own version? Or the Baghdadi Mu`tazilite version?


    That is the least you deserve, until you withdraw your nonsensical, insulting remarks about the scholars of Islam, regarding whom you said they erred on masse on the matter of Taqleed. As of now, you are an heir of the Baghdadi Mu`tazilite position. Don't think these people didn't exist. Here are two names for you:
    Number One
    Number Two
    They'll be very proud of you.


    Damn right it's a good question by the sister. An answer will follow insha'allah. Suffice to say for now:
    - Don't think the scholars of Islam didn't talk about this
    - Once the answer is given about how a layman deals with weak opinions, you will have no excuse left, except to provide an plausible alternative answer or accept the answer given
  10. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    There's no point banning the pair right now - perhaps they'll come to their sense. I haven't lost hope yet. Besides, I've only read the first page of this thread!

    Let the arguments - and their insults if necessary - be exhausted. I would hate to think they would have an excuse left to hide behind, or even a leg to stand on.


    You copied and pasted Zakir Naik. Taqleed of the highest order. He's not even considered a scholar in Fiqh. He's just a specialist in comparative religion, and apart from that he's famous. That's all. So let's abandon al-`Uthaymeen and run to Zakir Naik, shall we? Is that what you are telling us?


    1. Not from IA, but Multaqa Ahl 'l-Hadith.
    2. You friend Aziboy quoted from Multaqa as well when it suited him earlier on this thread.
    3. IA ain't biased to any Madhhab. What evidence do you have that it is a 'Hanbali webpage' anyway?


    You have faith in Allah, yet you have no faith in the inheritors of the Prophets - the scholars of Islam. Nice oxymoron. Who do you have faith in in terms of the religion being conveyed to you? Do you have a chain that goes back to the Prophet (peace be upon him), full of like-minded individuals to yours? I'm sure your chain will stop en route at the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites! That is where your ideology comes from. Thanks for reviving it for everybody to see what a laughing stock they were.


    Apart from the insults, I don't see any questions that needed responding to. It's time you respond to our questions.
  11. Aziboy
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    Oh so now a Blamegame all teamed up with their spear... you all went deep in ur blind following so much so that you are all defending it against the Authentic Text. where as there is no proof whatsoever. Stick to your Hanbaliness

    The topic is started to prove what HAQQ is from our Lord and not BLIND FOLLOWING or EGO.

    its you who are speaking out of Ego without answering to our questions rather putting urs in place.

    What ya'll want me to do now, become a blind follower? Making Multiple accounts won't help you Thariq

    You Copy paste from Islamic awareness website and accuse us for posting the truth, how sad?

    Does all your scholarly statements so far proved that Taqleed is permissible by ALLAH?

    ALLAH only want us to follow our beloved Prophet [saw] of course with the understand of Salaf but not anything and if there come difference then we'll have to return to the authentic resources.

    Any Scholar of Qur'an and Sunnah will never ever ask you to follow blindly, but rather give to the reason as to why a particular thing needs to be done

    You write anythng ya'll want to and then accuse me of being Childish an all?

    You do spell checking, quoting like a Boss [ba**s] and doing all useless stuff rather than proving Taqleed from Qur'an and Sunnah

    MAY ALLAH GUIDE OR CURSE THE DECEIVING PEOPLE.... Ameen Ya Rabb Al-Arshil Qareem

    Salam Alaykum to my Muslim brothers and sisters
  12. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Look if the Mu`tazilites of Baghdad were around they would have got the same treatment, so don't take it personally. I don't understand why you are insisting on adopting their position.


    You already are a blind follower. We'll show you the way, don't worry.


    Blind follower + slanderous accusations. Are you prepared to defend yourself in the Court of Allah?


    S. al-`Uthaymeen said the proof of Taqleed is in the Quranic verse "Ask the People of Dhikr if you do not know". I guess you disagree, since you deleted his fatwa on Taqleed.

    But I ask you again: What term do you use? Ittiba'? If so, then realise that Ittiba` has been used for the Kuffar in the Quran!!!
    إذ تبرأ الذين اتبعوا من الذين اتبعوا ورأوا العذاب وتقطعت بهم الأسباب (Al-Baqarah)

    Why should we blindly follow your terminology then and abandon established nomenclature of Islamic scholarship?


    Get the name right instead of doing blind Taqleed.


    You still haven't answer the question about what we should do when there is no Hadith. When the Sahabah differed in the inheritance of brothers in the presence of half-brothers, who should we follow? There isn't any Hadith. Tell us which opinion do you take:
    - The brothers get inheritance (some Sahabah took this opinion)
    - The brothers don't get inheritance (some Sahabah took this opinion)

    Answer this question, or burn in your rage, or accept your faulty Taqleedi understanding of anti-Taqleed.


    Which scholar has ever said in the history of Islam that a Mufti must give evidence to the common person?

    Besides, if all the scholars deceived us om Taqleed (like you believe), how can we trust them in anything else!? What there for a layman like you that saves you from their mistakes?


    It's Kareem. Not Qareem. The Mu`tazilites of Baghdad were pretty deceptive as well. Only one with a childish attitude would like to revive their position. I see at least two people on this thread trying to do their best to align themselves with the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites. Remember, these people were not even Ahl 'l-Sunnah!
  13. Abu Talib
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    Bro Aziboy your intention might have been good when you started this thread but your whole understanding of Taqleed is unreasonable and flawed. Its not meant to mean you a Muqalid but clear out your misconception.

    If you don't find Taqleed from Qur`aan and Sunnah do you reject it outrightly? Taqleed was terminology adopted by the scholars of Usul Al Fiqh and their likes includes some of the biggest Ulemaa`of the Ummah. So do you think they just used it out of no where then it would really be absurd.


    I hope you don't say these are not Scholars of Qur`aan and Sunnah.
  14. Aziboy
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    My HARRIS BLACK... Oh its HAIR IS not HARRIS, isn't it?

    you are never gona improve as u will still remain a blind follower.

    You help urself first, A blind will help a person with a sight to cross a road, Taqleed rocks isnt it....

    And listen blind follower when the Sahabah differed in the inheritance of brothers in the presence of half-brothers. We should follow both the opinions because they were the Sahabas and not the blind follower like you all are.

    They took their priests, their ancestors and scholars to be their lords in substitute of Allah and (they also took as their Lord) Christ, the son of Maryam (may Allah be pleased with her); Yet they were commanded (in their books) to worship none but one Allah; there is no god but He. Glorified is He (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). (Qur’an; 9:31)

    Adi Bin Hatim (May Allah be pleased with him) was a Christian who had embraced Islam. When this above verse was revealed, he came to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) and said: “Allah’s Messenger, at no time have we worshipped our priests and monks (ancestors and scholars); then why is Allah saying so?”

    To this the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Do you take your scholars’ words when they say a thing is halaal?” To this Hatim (May Allah be pleased with him) replied, “Yes.”

    Then the Prophet (peace be upon him) said, “Do you take the words of your Priests when they say a thing is haraam?” Again Hatim (may Allah be pleased with him) replied,“Yes.”

    Then, the Prophet (peace be upon him) asked: “Do you clarify as to whether Allah and His Prophet have said so? Hatim replied, “No, we know only what our scholars say.”

    Then Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said, “This is how you make them god for when your scholars and ancestors say something contradictory to Allah and His Prophet, you obey them blindly without, in the least clarifying, as to whether Allah and His Prophet said it. Then your scholars become the law makers and law givers and you obey them blindly; it then tanta-mounts to making them your deity”. (Ahmad & Tirmidhi)

    This message is not only for the Christians or Jews, it is also for Muslims because Allah is warning us to be careful and not to follow anyone blindly; Allah alone has the privilege to formulate laws and none other than Him has the authority or audacity to make laws.

    Whenever scholars say something, make sure to find out as to whether Allah and His Prophet have said so. If you don’t and if the scholar says something contradictory to Allah and His Messenger; and you blindly follow them, then you too have made your scholars and ancestors equal to Allah.

    Abdullah bin Amarra relates that the Holy Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said

    ‘Surely things will happen to my people as happened earlier to Israelites, they will resemble each other like one shoe in a pair resembles the other to the extent that if anyone among the Israelites has openly committed adultery to his mother there will be some who will do this in my Ummah as well, verily the Israelites were divided into 72 sects but my people will be divided into 73 sects, all of them will be in the fire except one.
    'The companions asked. 'Who are they O Messenger of Allah,' Holy Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said. `They are those who will be like me and my companions.’
    (Tirmidhi - Kitabul Eeman)

    Dont believe in Hadith, right? take a scholarly opinion then

    Shaykh Abdal Qadir al-Jilani (d. 561/1166; Rahimahullah) stated in his commentary to the above Hadith in Ghunyat at-Talibin (pg. 90),
    "The Believer should adapt himself to the Sunnah and to the Jama'ah. The Sunnah is the way shown by Rasulullah (Peace be upon him). The Jama'ah is composed of the things done unanimously by the Sahaba al-Kiram who lived in the time of the four caliphs called Khulafa' ar-Rashidin (and others in their path). A Muslim must prevent the multiplication of the men of bid'ah and keep away from them, and should not greet them (as given in many Hadith on this issue). Ahmad ibn Hanbal (rahimahullah), said that greeting a man of bid'ah meant loving him since it had been declared in a Hadith, 'Disseminate (your) greeting (salaam)! Love one another in this way!" He also said (pg. 143): "The title, Ahl as-Sunnah, which the innovators have expressed for themselves is not appropriate for them."

    you can imagine I don't have time to quote your foolish comment or else I would have added an extra effort in doing research on ur forefathers, I doubt them being Rafidah or Baghdadi Mu`tazilites coz you have no sense, you went deep discussing about the Grave and the Court of ALLAH [swt] where as you have no sense to grasp the authentic sources, Typical no sense HAIR IS
  15. Aziboy
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    :salam2:
    Bro Abu Talib,

    Following Scholars in the light of Qur'an and Sunnah is not Taqleed is what I wanted to prove, though many of the scholars have used it in the past, but are we to Obey the scholars [ra]?

    But these people are hardcore blind followers and you can see their comments and how they are getting sparked
  16. Harris Hammam
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    Thank you for showing your true colours, your lack of trust in the preservation of Deen of Allah, and your mistrust in the heirs of the Prophets.


    All what this means you are not Ahl 'l-Sunnah, nor are you a Sunni. Look at where you anti-Taqleed has landed you. Would any Muslim agree with you? I guess Imam Ahmad, Imam al-Bukhari (and remember "Lilkai"?) erred in this as well.


    The only fool here is the one who decides to do Taqleed of the Baghdadi Mu`tazilites.

    Why don't you give us a list of scholars who followed only the authentic text so we can follow in their footsteps?


    You can choke on the Arabic text here, as Sheikh Albani says:
    لا أعلم دليلا على تحريم التقليد بل التقليد لا بد منه لمن لا علم عنده، وقد قال الله تعالى: (فسئلوا أهل الذكر إن كنتم لا تعلمون)

    page 42
    http://www.ajurry.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=18893&d=1330521030

    As I said, accept what S. Albani said, or throw him out just like you you threw S. al-`Uthaymeen out. Either way, your sheer ignorance can perish in its rage.
  17. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    A post full of insults, apart from this which is very idiotic:
    How on earth do you achieve that!?

    A woman dies. She has half brothers and full brothers.

    One opinion in the Sahabah is that the full brothers get no inheritance.

    The other opinion in the Sahabah is that the full brothers get some inheritance.

    You can't follow both opinions at the same time. Only an idiot blind Muqallid would assert that.

    So tell us, which opinion should we follow?
  18. Abu Talib
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    :wasalam:

    Then what is Taqleed according to you brother and why do you think the Scholars of past have used it?
  19. Aziboy
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    Hey blind follower, you should follow both the opinions but depending upon the situation not at a time. Are you here for Sympathy or publicity? you know what you are there, coz you managed to get some patrons here, keep it up while your eyes are still closed
  20. Harris Hammam
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    You said it here:
    How can you be of both the yes and no opinions at the same time!?

    You are proving yourself to be an utter farce. Why are you humiliating yourself? A Muslim should not humiliate himself.

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