I am not confusing anything. I just wanted to say that majority of Muslim spread was for power rather than Islamic preaching. I am not talking about the later development and peace which may have prevailed but the attacks over non muslim countries were largely due to greed of power.
How to answer difficulty questions from atheists?
- Thread starter Azmul
- Start date
I am not confusing anything. I just wanted to say that majority of Muslim spread was for power rather than Islamic preaching. I am not talking about the later development and peace which may have prevailed but the attacks over non muslim countries were largely due to greed of power.
sachin4islam
Junior Member
Assalamu Alaikum:
When last revelation was blessed to Muhammad (SAW) in form of Quran,the administrative authorities world over were in form of monarchies. In such cases obviously the state religion was the one that royal families practiced. Now just think would these monarchies allow propagation of Islam?. Surely they would resist. So now how to disperse eternal truth?. That wasn't age of electronic communication.
Though Muslims warriors were loaded with swords but the intention wasn't material sweep. Their power was word of Allah (SWT) and sayings of Muhammad (SAW) (within their hearts and on their tongues) ,that is what they were on a mission to deliver.
Regards.
a_stranger
Junior Member
You are right brother, I think that worst trial for any human...... muslem or nonmuslem when he is given some power, he may be the worst kind of creature, .......we have seen this plainly in our world ,still I insist our muslem world is very much ignorant of the true teachings of Islam concerning spirits, morals, hearts...............Islam can make a true revolution in the world of ethics if and only if learned and practiced with sincerity. Our humanity is a mess without Islam .
We need to learn how to pray with a heart this can make a true differance.
Seeking Allah's Mercy
Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Next time brother, ask a Proud Muslims women and not some idiot of why she's proud of Islam and what Islam gives her over other systems of life. Trust me, if it wasn't for Islam, you males would have treated us like rubbish, now we rule you Alhumdulillah it's girls' power in Islam.
This exactly, that's why all of us are telling you to learn Islam first. You may spend 1000 years and you may still not know 2% of Qur'an, that's how concerntrated this knowledge is. To go about debating others without knowing even a fraction of Islam is real odd.
Have they not made you doubt a number of things in your deen? It's not the athiest we are scared of, it's the shaytan's whispers who uses these apparantly irrefutable logical statements to cast doubts into hearts. Would you rather someone lead you to hellfire? Equip yourself before you go to them. Go to them for sure, we can do with a couple of Da'ees, but Equip yourself before doing so.
Represent our religion in what way? Feeble arguments? How in Allah's world are you going to do that when you don't know anthing yourself? They already trampled you when they made you think you were ready to debate them and they outdid you. It's not about running away from them, it's about getting an MBBS degree before trying to cure the patients. Without that you may as well kill the patients or yourself when you are sick. You should fight them, may Allaah guide you. YOu seem interested in this field, listen to Hamza Tzetotious (sp?) and his debates, learn Quran and Sunnah, study the scholarly commentaries so that you actually "know" the answers before they even ask you. Like I said I debated them and still do sometimes, brother unless you know your deen, you cannot preach or defend it. You only go barechested and they hit straigh with an arrow. Before you help others, make your ownself strong Inshaa'Allaah!
Even after a decade you shouldn't just accept things just like that. Questioning the authenticity of something is very important. By all means we are not saying not to question, just saying to not let the others question you unless you know your thing Inshaa'Allaah. Ignorants can't give knowledge. We are ignorants. You cannot lighten the darkness with darkness now can you? Get the light Inshaa'Allaah.
Nope, not always, When did the sword reach far eastern countries and egypt? When did the sword reach the Khyber pukhtoonkwa of your country? It reached Afghanistan but not that province, the poeple accepted Islam readily when they saw what it was. Full of Hayaa and Gheerah, two characters the Pukhtoons cherished most. I beleive Akh preseveranze answered you here. We used the sword only to defend or be offensive the oppresive. I don't what histroy books you have read. But if you recall, it was being offensive to the oppressors. The Sindhi Pirates had taken captives some Muslims families, when the trade ships crossed arabians sea. A women called for help and Muhammad Bin Qasim was send to free them. When Muslims fight they fight till death, you don't expect people to turn into bunny rabbits in battle fields just because they are Muslims, now do you?
May Allaah make our faith strong. Ameen
Respected brother the correct dua is JazaakAllaahu khayraa for males and KumAllaahu khayraa for the whole lot of us. Just a quick correction
Well, you know this argument is very similar to the one which america made to attack iraq. What did America say? Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and in the good interest of America and the other world, Iraq needs to be invaded.
The actual reason though, was the opposite, America wanted to capture the oil fields.
Same holds true in this situation. Hajjaj Bin Yousuf along with his army had a longing for the richness Sindh possessed. They had to attack Sindh and for that they put up a drama that few muslims have been captivated by Hindu Raja and therefore now we are going to attack all of you.
It was a fabricated story.
But ok, lets suppose that Hindus really made a muslim family captive, can you tell me that is it justified to destroy whole country just to free a single family?
I live in Sindh and I know what he did to us. Our complete cities were destroyed, our trade centres burnt and women, as usual, taken as maal e ghanimat. And I'd like to ask you do you know how Muhammad Bin Qasim died?
Nice point Sister. And that's exactly why I posted my questions here.
I didn't start this discussion forum to prove all of you wrong, rather I wanted to know what you think are the best counter replies to them. Whatever I was arguing was actually the way atheist argue. I was trying my best to mimic them to get the best answers.
a_stranger
Junior Member
Brother did you study Quran? Did you feel that you creator is talking to you through that book?
Seeking Allah's Mercy
Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Brother did I justify their attack by saying they wanted sindh rich resources? I said they went in to free the Muslims. Mark you, the captives weren't the only Muslims there in sindh. Islam had reached sub continent long before Muhamad Bin Qasim. I apologise, but I asked what book was it that you read? I refuse to take the empty claim that they burned cities and molested the females without authentic referance as proof. Muhammad Bin Qasim was known for his peity and thus he ended up in prison due his clash with Hajjaj Bin Yousuf. It's bizarre for you to claim he was such a beast and come up with up no referance when I requested. He could have been harsh on the battlefield, but from what I remember, many villages and cities (hindu) formed alleignce with him and formed an Islamic state to free themselve from whatever hindu devil was ruling them and then he left and was imprisoned. He never stayed to rule. So your point that he came for Sindh's resources becomes weak in and of itself.
Now what made that story fabricated?
From I've studied your stories are strange. No, it is never justified to kill, burn and massaccre the innocents, but only if it "did" happen. Point is did it happen?
I don't live far from "your" sindh bro, it's "my blood and soil" even if I don't belong from there ethnically. I got every bit of claim on it as you. Don't get so possesive of land that belongs to Allaah. Though, tell you what it can be pretty hard not to get attached to your homeland.
About Maal-e-Ghanimat, yep! it was their right, the sindhi hindus should have known what would happen if they lost in their game. Dear brother, you are very unfortunate victim of Asabiya. May I just remind you, you are a Muslim first and Sindhi later. You said "They" i.e the Muslims destroyed "your" i.e sindhi country as if you are the hindu sindhi and the arabs were the beasts called Muslims. Find out where your loyalties lie bro? Nationalism ('Asabiya) is an evil poison and thus is Haram. The Prophet
of Allaah forbade and warned us against it.I know lil to nothing about him, apart from what our teachers taught us at school. I like histroy but I don't have time to waste and check others faults and deaths when I myself need to check my faults and have death look at me in my face every second. I would like to spent sometime studying histroy but I'm overburdened by learning about behaving myself, acting upon the sunnah, talking to Allaah through Qur'aan and focusing on my Salah. My day is only 24 hours! and I don't even know arabic to begin with. Yikes!
It's good that you called for help. I hope some of what we shared have helped you. You tried to mimic them and you automatically pushed the "be direct" switch in me. From experience, be humble and polite to the athiest, they dance on your head. Talk to them in a "no messing around" tone and they understand better.
Itqan Ullah
Time is Running!!
Asslamaliekum warahmatullahi wabarakatu,
I had many encounters with athiest and some of them were very arrogant and devoted to slander about Islam, I noticed most of questions they raise are from christian missionary websites who morph history and misinterpret ayah's. If you find that is the case then just equip yourself with http://www.answering-christianity.com/ It answers every false allegations they raise against us.
But my encounter was with people who (most of them) were simply trolling, from questions you posted they seemed to be asked legiminately so maybe it might be better to hand them over few resources like this:
www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf
I had many encounters with athiest and some of them were very arrogant and devoted to slander about Islam, I noticed most of questions they raise are from christian missionary websites who morph history and misinterpret ayah's. If you find that is the case then just equip yourself with http://www.answering-christianity.com/ It answers every false allegations they raise against us.
But my encounter was with people who (most of them) were simply trolling, from questions you posted they seemed to be asked legiminately so maybe it might be better to hand them over few resources like this:
www.sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf
Itqan Ullah
Time is Running!!
Women rights in Islam:
http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/womenrights/index.htm (plz go through this thoroughly and inshallah you will be answer every question they raise)
and then concluding speech :
[yt]71SqX6qlB_4[/yt]
http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/womenrights/index.htm (plz go through this thoroughly and inshallah you will be answer every question they raise)
and then concluding speech :
[yt]71SqX6qlB_4[/yt]
Perseveranze
Junior Member
Asalaamu Alaikum,
I stopped reading after this. The british actually removed/downgraded the rights of people Islam gave, especially women, such as inheritance etc.
I think you've already made your mind up, you have pre-concieved notions and for as long as you have them, you won't ever be content with thinking straight and seeing truth.
And yes, it was rare, compared to any other religion or nation, as mentioned above, no "conquerers" were as mercifull as the Muslims had been. This is fact.
ps. You're starting to sound like a troll, "what the muslims did to us", does that imply you are a kaafir or something? Whether you're Muslim or not, be thankful you're not worshipping idols made of clay and living in ignorance.
Seeking Allah's Mercy
Qul HuwaAllahu Ahud!
Wasalamo 'Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa barakaatuh,
Nice reply.
I see you added a P.S. when I clicked 'quote'. To be honest, that's what is really surprising. Brother Azmul is, as if confused. He is saying them and us, you'd think he only looks upon the word Muslim, as a filler for the religion space in his identity card, and that his real identity is being a Sindhi. A real unfortunate victim of nationalism indeed.
He is supposed to have read some histroy books that tell him Muslims went on killing spree to sindh and killed "them". Whoever this "them" is.
Ok it seems you live in vicinity of Sindh, somewhere. You have good 'textbook' knowledge of Sindh History. And I am sure you would be knowing the name of Dr. Mubarak Ali. He is a renowned Historian and has written many books on history of subcontinent. I suppose he is to be trusted in what he writes.
In his book, Reinterpretation of Arab conquest of Sindh, Dr. Mubarak tells what was the real reason of attacking Sindh.
I am sending you its gist.
Reinterpretation of Arab conquest of Sindh:
"Generally in the history books the cause of the Arab invasion to Sindh is described as the imprisonment of women and children of Arab families who were coming from Sri Lanka by the sea pirates near Debal, presumably by the approval of the ruler of Sindh. An Arab girl at the time of capture cried for help to Hajjaj, who was the governor of Basrah.On hearing about this incident and the plea of the girl, he decided to punish the ruler and get the Arab prisoners released. A thorough analysis reveals many weaknesses and flaws of the story. Hajjaj, a shrewd politician and experienced general who has been negatively portrayed in the history by the historians of the Abbasid period as a tyrant and despot because of his Umayyad affiliation, could not take action to invade Sindh merely on the cry for help of a girl .He was not the man to be carried away by emotions and sentiments. On the contrary, he took political decision coolly after weighing the pros and cons of the case.
Therefore, there were other important reasons that compelled him to undertake the venture. First all, the Arabs had made many attempts to conquer Sindh since the time of Hazrat Umar but failed to achieve their object because there was no immediate need to occupy it for military or political reasons. However, during the Umayyad period it became possible because, after the conquest of Makran, the land route became safe and a large army could be sent without any danger and obstacle. Moreover, by the time of the 8th century, the Arab merchants had established close trade and commercial relations with the coastal towns of south India and Sri Lanka and established their settlements in a number of places. Therefore, the presence of sea pirates near the port of Debal and the capture of the ship alarmed the merchant community. Their concern was safety of the sea route. Apparently, that was the reason that Hajjaj decided to send expeditions to Sindh to conquer and to occupy it in order to protect the interest of the Arab merchants.
Historians also give credit to Muhammad b. Qasim for the conquest of Sindh and especially emphasise his youth as a factor to his achievements. The close study of the Chuchnama or Fathnama shows that in reality, Muhammad b. Qasim was just a figure head and the real authority was in the hand of Hajjaj who conducted the whole expedition sitting in Basrah commanding the young general how to act, negotiate and tackle different problems. We find that Muhammad b. Qasim asked for everything to Hajjaj: how to deal with the vanquished people, how to cross-river, how to talk with the tribal chiefs and how to make arrangement in the battlefields. He never dared to take any action independently. In this regard the decision of Hajjaj on the treatment of the Sindhi Hindus and Buddhists is very significant. When Muhammad b. Qasim asked him how should they be treated? Hajjaj wrote to him that they should be treated as people of the book like the Zoroastrians of Persia and after paying jizya, they should be given the status of Zimmis.That was the model that later on the Sultans of Delhi and Mughal Emperors adopted in India."
Our textbook history is largely devoid of facts. I don't blame you for believing it because we have been nurtured that way. Pakistan's history has been so shrewdly manipulated and has been presenting as if we were the most pious people... I'd love to talk about that but that's not the topic of discussion right now.
So, let me come back to the death of Mohammad Bin Qasim. His death was ordered by Hajjaj for an awful reason. You asked for book references so let me quote from a history book, "Chachnamah".
Chachnama:
.... The next day when the king of stars made his appearance from behind the curtain of night, a camelman bearing a letter from the capital of the Khalifahs arrived. Muhammad son of Ali, and Abdul Hasan Humadani relate that at the time of Rai Dahar's death, two of his virgin daughters had been captured in his seraglio. Muhammad Kasim sent them in charge of some Abyssinian servants to the holy city of Baghdad. The Khalifah ordered them to be taken into his seraglio, in order that they might take rest and be comforted for some days, and be in a fit condition to be admitted into his bed-chamber. After some
time the Khalifah remembered them, and ordered that both, of them be brought to him at night. When they came, Walid son of Abdul Malik required his interpreter to make the usual enquiries, and to ask them as to which of them was the elder, so that one of them might be kept back and taken care of till her sister's turn was over. The interpreter first asked their names. The elder of them said, “My name is Surijdew,” and the younger said “My name is Pirmaldew.” He then called the elder sister to himself, and ordered the
younger to be removed and taken care of. When he seated the elder near himself, she unveiled her face and the Khalifah of the time looked at it, and became charmed with her perfect beauty. Her blood-sucking blandishments, took away patience from his heart, and he began to take liberties with her, and, catching hold of Surijdew, pulled her to himself. Surijdew sprang up and said: “May the king live long: I, a humble slave, am not fit for your Majesty's bed-room, because the just amir, Imaduddin Muhammad Kasim kept us both with him for 3 days, and then sent us to the Khalifah. Perhaps your custom is such, or else this kind of disgrace should not be permitted by kings.” At that
moment his passion for the girl blinded the Khalifah. He lost patience, and his excess of jealousy did not permit him to make any enquiries. He therefore immediately sent for pen, ink and paper, and with his own hands wrote an order, directing that “Muhammad Kasim should, wherever he may be, put himself in raw leather and come back to the chief seat of the Khalifah."
Assalaam walaikum,
Once again..I ask what does this have to do with atheists? What does this have to do with Islam.
What we need to concentrate on are the people who are making progress in Muslim countries by revisiting the annals of Islam.
The personal pronouns only divide. Let us refocus. InshaAllah, it will be in refocusing that we can provide logical and rational answers.
Once again..I ask what does this have to do with atheists? What does this have to do with Islam.
What we need to concentrate on are the people who are making progress in Muslim countries by revisiting the annals of Islam.
The personal pronouns only divide. Let us refocus. InshaAllah, it will be in refocusing that we can provide logical and rational answers.
a_stranger
Junior Member
:salam2:
Brother concentrating on some historical stories , no one know how authentic they are won't help you develop your knoweldge of Islam , on the contrary it will full your heart with doubts and falsehood ,most of us grew up in anti Islamic invorenment , during our youth we were fed with a lot of anti Islamic concepts . We didn't understand islam till we studied Quran and sunna with seeking hearts and practiced Islam as a Whole worshipping , morality, spirituality..........., then we felt the greatness of this deen and understood how it can cure illness anywhere within human soul and outside. No one among us is perfect ,but the message we carry is perfect. I pray that Allah give us all such insight and guide all of us to his straight path.
Brother concentrating on some historical stories , no one know how authentic they are won't help you develop your knoweldge of Islam , on the contrary it will full your heart with doubts and falsehood ,most of us grew up in anti Islamic invorenment , during our youth we were fed with a lot of anti Islamic concepts . We didn't understand islam till we studied Quran and sunna with seeking hearts and practiced Islam as a Whole worshipping , morality, spirituality..........., then we felt the greatness of this deen and understood how it can cure illness anywhere within human soul and outside. No one among us is perfect ,but the message we carry is perfect. I pray that Allah give us all such insight and guide all of us to his straight path.
Victim? Well, not really. As you said, or perhaps some other sister said that Islam was spread in subcontinent by Sufis. I agree to it along with the fact that forced conversions and the extra tax 'jizya' also played their part.
Now what I wanted to explain is that homeland is a person's first identity. I am Sindhi first and then Muslim because that the rule of the thumb. Arabs always considered being Arab initially and then a muslim. How? Its answer is simple, Wherever they went, they imposed their language over the country rather than accepting the national language. If They were Muslims first they didn't need to impose their language.
Take a current example, We all are muslims but if you go to Saudi Arabia, you'll never get the nationality there. Why? Reason is simple, they are Arabs first and then Muslims therefore any muslim is not allowed unless he is an Arab too. My point here is simple. Religion is a guideline to lead a life while Nationality is your identity. If you'll consider Muslim as your nationality then you are in real trouble because then you'll have to share your home property with all the muslims as they'll become the legitimate heir of it.
Sister, with all due respect, using the identity as Muslim has always been political rather than religious. Try to comprehend the facts of this world. We have been asked to live in this world so we need to understand what's going on here. I don't know from where you belong but we Sindhis have really suffered because of this notion. Our rich sources have been captured and you must be well aware of the situation of Sindh right now.
Islam is my religion, Sindhi is my identity.
There is difference in our views but by no means do i want to degrade Islam. Its just that we need to understand the difference between a person's identity and his religion.
Itqan Ullah
Time is Running!!
Brother, tell me if this is not nationalism then what is nationalism? A "muslim" is a believers first identity everything else comes after that. What is my country or province for me? A blessing from Allah(swt) and a test. You seem to be fascinated by a lot of history books but low on understanding of deen. The history books you are reading have manipulated viewpoints. I give you an example as you live in my neighbor country , I think you would have heard about Taj Mahal? Open your history books and see about shah Jahan & his son Aurangzeb you will find all sort of glorification of shah jahan & his love for his wife and all kind of criticism for Aurangzeb that he imprisoned his own father.... <-- this is one viewpoint. However, when we study bit deep we see the time at which taj mahal was built agra was struck by a famine and when people were dying out of hunger Shah Jahan invested millions of bucks in building Taj Mahal and added to attrocities he even ordered to cut the hands of all those who had built Taj Mahal! This is second viewpoint and more nearer to what I believe. Is this not an evidence of justice of aurangzeb? while most ppl would try to hide the crimes of their family members he stood for justice, even if the one against him was his own father. No I am not glorifying Aurangzeb I don't know much about him and far as I know he was a nakshbandi sufi so it is quite likely that he may have committed many errors but anyways allahu alam I don't know I was just giving an example.
Regarding spread of of Islam on tip of sword do you know Mughals ruled over India for around 331 years! (from 1526- mughal empire started by babur to revolt of 1857 in which british defeated Bahadur Shah Zafar) and I think this period should have been enough for them to convert atleast more than 65% of India to Islam which we know is not the case, if you would like to verify this search the population of muslims during 1857 or even somewhere around partition of india , look for population of non muslims and you would find the population of non-muslims is considerable greater than that of muslims! hence we conclude Islam did not spread on the tip of sword.
I don't favour any Mughal emperor, be it Shah Jahan or Aurangzeb. Both were enamored with lust of power.
And regarding your point that why didn't Mughal emperor do forced conversions, I have to say that forced conversions were part of initial tactics to get maximum support in the country. After becoming the ruler, they apply tax over non muslims which lead to discrimination and subsequently many conversions in order to attain a higher status in society.
Ershad
Junior Member
:salam2:
I am not a Saudi nor an Arab nor do I live in Saudi Arabia. No, they are muslims first and then Arabs. Though Saudi is not "the" most perfect muslim country, they are trying their best to implement sharia. As for nationality, since 2005, they are allowing people from other countries to get their nationality under certain conditions. Please stop blaming Saudi or King Abdullah for everything. I am tired of hearing this. You have no idea what other things they are doing for the Muslim Ummah. Go and see around the world in other muslim nations, how many mosques, how many madarassas, how many universities are funded by Saudi Government. How much they spent on charity to muslims in Somalia. How many Saudi Arabs died in Jihad in Chechenya. Not to mention how much they spend on facilitating hajj piligrims. Yes, there are some problems in that as well. But, they are not intentional. Every book I read about Islam gets published at some Dawah center in Saudi Arabia. They give out books and material for free to other Dawah Centers. They translate it to other languages and send it to people. If you study at any university in Saudi, you don't have to pay any fees at all. In most cases, they give you stipends. This doesn't happen in my home country and not in most. It is very easy to blame some country for small shortcomings. The reason why they are hesitant to give out nationalities because it might lead to some economic problems. However, now they allow you to get the nationality if you satisfy some conditions which according to me, is very fair. According to me, a muslim in Saudi Arabia will get everything he needs to exercise his religious duties and increase his faith. I think that is more than enough in a Muslim country. Agreed they are not the perfect, but they are better than the most. They are trying to improve. They are one of the very few stable countries in the middle east now.
Now, I am not a supporter or sympathizer of Saudi Arabia nor the Ibn Saud regime. But, when you make a conclusion or opinion, make a justified opinion.
In the last sermon of Prophet SAW, he said " All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a White has no superiority over a Black nor does a Black have any superiority over a White except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly."
So, being Arab or non-Arab has no significance for the muslim ummah. The other day I was watching the Biography Of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal. He was a non-Arab. But, he acquired really high status in the Arab dynasty and you would be surprised, most Arabs follow his school of jurisprudence. It is his knowledge of Islam. Knowledge and Eeman gets significance over everything else. Being not given nationality is a silly argument.