The Methodology of the Salaf Concerning Ijtihad and Taqlid

Discussion in 'Islamic Discussion' started by Aziboy, May 16, 2012.

  1. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    I don't even understand why Deoband came into this discussion.

    Clearly, the discussion on Taqleed predates Darul Uloom Deoband or any other Islamic University.

    These Pakistani Ahle Hadees think all the ills of the world are down to Deoband. This is their level of thinking. They can't think a world that is beyond the Deobandi-Ahle Hadees-Barelwi paradigm!
  2. samiha
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    samiha --------- Staff Member

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    Br HH, take it easy on the spellings maybe? I know you're very specific about how you word things, and some of these are major transgressions, but some others aren't really, so I feel you might due to be a little easier on them about this as English, or Arabic is clearly not their first language.

    And Deoband came into it to discredit you. Because it goes back to that 'mentality' of if you support something - you must support every facet of it. So because you quoted an article that may have been used/written by a Deobandi, it must mean you support them in their every issue and wayward beliefs - therefore, trying to make you someone not to be listened to. Whereas, I'm sure it should be clear that this is not the case.

    It's similar to the "We're Muslim, he's Hanafi" line of thinking - all a mode of discrediting, trying to put you into the same boat some some hanafi laymen who might have said strange things or supported them. I think it's diversionary and allows these people an excuse not to listen to you, as they have no response to the points.
  3. Al-Kashmiri
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    Al-Kashmiri Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    You didn't return my salaams,

    Brother, I quoted you as you were the one to reply to sister Asja in the manner you did, as if to drag others involved into this issue when there really is no need. It's far from objective and is more emotional, much like your question to me. Is there a need for the rudeness you just displayed in the question you asked me? You know well I didn't mean or assert that, failed to see the lesson in what I mentioned and resorted to such means.

    As per spelling than yes, I do say Harris should stop quoting people's way of typing as it's all relative and doesn't add any good in to the thread (except as described in the following sentence). However, saying 'Allahum Alum' or 'Yaa Rabbil `Aalameen" have serious blunders in them that go beyond what we conventionally see as one's personal transliteration, rather they contain grammatical errors.

    So I don't see how 'all mods' are overlooking Harris. I'm currently reading through the whole thread to see where this has gone and who has initiated what.

    As I said in my post earlier I would like for it to be kept open, but seriously akhi things have to change here from yourself and your opposition.

    Thus I restate that you're all advised to change your manner of communication to others and stick to the issue. No comments about people's translit (unless it's grammatical), comments about avatars or anything whereby one is being insulted. Is it from Islam to behave in this way? Far from it. If you dispute and it heats - then please don't cross the line.

    And no finger pointing on this, as a number of your brothers have done so it makes little difference saying "well he started it" etc.
  4. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    ok I understand but the posts I made to highlight how unqualified people are so forcefully ramming down their personal isolated opinion on the rest of us as if we are all wrong...

    ... not to mention their insulting attitude to classical Islamic heritage and scholarship, as if nobody got it right until they started posting on TTI.

    I don't feel they have added anything constructive beyond their initial confrontational questions, which were all fully responded to. They asked a series of counter-questions but failed to answer and were sent packing. When the writing was on the wall, they resorted to ad hominem attacks in an attempt to perhaps shut down the thread so that nobody benefits.

    Patience has a limit. Reminds me of how Ibn `Abbas treated a questioner who kept on reminding him about Salah, until Ibn `Abbas got so fed up he remarked 'Who do you think you are!?', and what `A'ishah said to Abu Salamah bin `Abd 'l-Rahman when the latter became argumentative with people of senior knowledge, "You are like a chick who heard a rooster crow, so it started crowing too [in its timid voice, as if he's cut of for knowledge like seniors are]"

    I'll leave this to the good judgement of the moderators as to how this thread has progressed. And I promise I won't point out spelling and grammar blunders unless necessary.
  5. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    On the Tajweed issue:
    See the bolded bit? The poor fellow thinks Tajweed is about 'understanding the Quran'! I pity him. Must have got mixed up with Tafseer.

    The guy is all over the place. I'm glad that nobody sensible here is taking him seriously.
  6. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Yazid bin Harun (died 206 A.H.) said:

    إن العالم حجتك بينك وبين الله
    Verily, the scholar is your [i.e. the layman's] evidence between yourself and Allah...


    2/378, Al-Faqih Wal-Mutafaqqih by al-Khatib al-Baghdadi
  7. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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  8. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Al-Khatib (died 462 A.H.) also says in the same book, in the etiquettes of asking for a fatwa:

    "ليس ينبغي للعامي أن يطالب المفتي بالحجة فيما أجابه به، ولا يقول لم ولا كيف؟ قال الله سبحانه وتعالى "فاسألوا أهل الذكر إن كنتم لا تعلمون، وفرق تبارك وتعالى بين العامة وبين أهل العلم فقال "قل هل يستوي الذين يعلمون والذين لايعلمون". فإن أحب أن تسكن نفسه بسماع الحجة في ذلك سأل عنها في زمان آخر ومجلس ثان أو بعد قبول الفتوى من المفتي مجردة​

    It is not appropriate for the layman to demand the Mufti for evidence in his answer, nor should he ask 'why' or 'how'. Allah says, "Ask the People of Dhikr if you do not know", and Allah made a distinction between the laymen and the people of knowledge by saying "Say: Are the knowledgeable and those who do not have knowledge equal?" If he wants to give solace to himself by hearing the evidence in that [matter], he should ask for it at another time and in another sitting, or after [wholeheartedly] accepting the fatwa from the Mufti [without intention of reneging on it].
  9. xAllahKnowsBestx
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    xAllahKnowsBestx Junior Member

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  10. Al-Kashmiri
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    Al-Kashmiri Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Firstly jazaak Allaahu khayra for agreeing to that.

    Yes, in fact I too believe that much of what these brothers have said is not constructive and at times insulting to the `Ullemaa' in an indirect way. I also believe they've continually failed to address you and have responded claiming the opposite. I don't know if this is what you get from 'ahle hadees' as I know some senior figureheads in the UK and it's not what I've seen!
  11. Idris16
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    Idris16 Junior Member

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    I have not read the posts here but could some people please write a summary of what they think of taqleed and ijtihad and what the laymen should do, please?
  12. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Isn't it time that this low-life is banned!?

    Yazid bin Harun is a famous narrator of Hadith, an Imam, a Hafiz, an authentic source and is present in all Six major books of Hadith and beyond!

    Ibn Hajar in his Tahdhib 'l-Tahdhib dedicated a long passage for him.

    [612] ع الستة يزيد بن هارون بن وادي ويقال زاذان بن ثابت السلمي مولاهم أبو خالد الواسطي

    أحد الاعلام الحفاظ المشاهير (one of the great, famous Huffaz)

    قيل أصله بن بخاري

    [Teachers in Hadith]
    روى عن سليمان التيمي وحميد الطويل وعاصم الأحول وإسماعيل بن أبي خالد وأبي مالك الأشجعي ويحيى بن سعيد الأنصاري وحريز بن عثمان وابن عون وداود بن أبي هند وحسين المعلم ومحمد بن إسحاق وسعيد الجريري وسفيان بن حسين وكهمس بن الحسن ومحمد بن عمرو بن علقمة ومسلم بن سعيد وهمام وورقاء بن عمر وهشام بن حسان وأبان العطار وحجاج بن أبي زينب والحمادين والربيع بن مسلم وشعبة والثوري وسليمان بن على الربعي وسليمان بن كثير وعبد الخالق بن سلمة وعبد العزيز الماجشون وعبد الملك بن أبي سليمان والعوام بن حوشب وعمر بن محمد العمري وأبي غسان محمد بن مطرف وهشام الدستوائي وهشيم وإبراهيم بن سعد وخلق

    [Students in Hadith]
    وعنه بقية بن الوليد ومات قبله وآدم بن أبي إياس وأحمد بن حنبل وإسحاق بن راهويه ويحيى بن معين وعلي بن المديني وابنا أبي شيبة وبيان بن عمرو وبندار وأبو موسى ومحمد بن سلام وأبو خيثمة وعمرو الناقد وابن نمير ومحمد بن حاتم بن ميمون وهارون الحمال ومحمد بن عبادة الواسطي وعباس العنبري ومحمد بن عبد الرحيم البزار وعمرو بن علي الفلاس والمفضل بن سهل الأعرج وأبو قدامة وابن أبي عمر وعبد بن حميد والحسن بن علي الحلال وعبد الله بن نمير ويحيى بن جعفر ويحيى بن موسى خت ويوسف بن موسى القطان ومطر بن الفضل ويعقوب الدورقي وأحمد بن سنان القطان والذهلي ومحمد بن عبيد بن المنادي والحسين بن عيسى البسطامي وأبو قلابة الرقاشي والحسن بن عرفة والحسن بن محمد الزعفراني ومحمد بن عبد الملك الدقيقي والحارث بن أبي أسامة وأبو مسعود الرازي وعباس الدوري ومحمد بن أحمد بن أبي العوام والحارث بن أبي أسامة وأحمد بن عبد الرحمن السقطي وآخرون

    [Praise]
    قال أبو طالب عن أحمد كان حافظا للحديث صحيح الحديث عن حجاج بن أرطاة وقال بن المديني هو من الثقات وقال في موضع آخر ما رأيت أحفظ منه وقال بن معين ثقة وقال العجلي ثقة ثبت في الحديث وكان متعبدا حسن الصلاة جدا وكان يصلي الضحى ستة عشر ركعة غير قليل وكان قد عمي وقال أبو زرعة عن أبي بكر بن أبي شيبة ما رأيت أتقن حفظا من يزيد قال أبو زرعة والإتقان أكثر من حفظ السرد وقال أبو حاتم ثقة إمام صدوق لا يسأل عن مثله وقال عمرو بن عون عن هشيم بالبصريين مثل يزيد وقال أحمد بن سنان عن عفان أخذ يزيد عن حماد حفظا وبقي صحاح من الاستواء غير قليل ومدحها وقال أيضا ما رأيت عالما قط أحسن صلاة منه كأنه أسطوانة لم يكن يفتر عن صلاة الليل والنهار وكان هو وهشيم معروفين بطول الصلاة وقال يحيى بن يحيى كان بالعراق أربعة من الحفاظ فذكره فيهم وإشار إلى أنه أحفظهم من وكيع وقال مؤمل بن إهاب سمعت يزيد يقول ما دلست قط إلا حديثا واحدا عن عون فما بورك لي فيه وقال محمد بن قدامة الجوهري سمعته يقول احفظ خمسة وعشرين ألف إسناد ولا فخر وقال علي بن شعيب سمعته يقول أحفظ أربعة وعشرين ألف حديث بإسناده ولا فخر وأحفظ للشاميين عشرين ألف حديث لا أسأل عنها وقال يحيى بن أبي طالب كان يقال أن في مجلسه سبعين ألف رجل وقال يعقوب بن سفيان عن محمد بن فضيل البزار ولد يزيد سنة سبع عشرة ومائة وقال بن سعد كان ثقة كثير الحديث ولد سنة ثماني عشرة وكان يقول طلبت العلم وحصين حي وقد نسي وربما ابتدأني الجريري بالحديث وكان قد أنكر

    [More praise]
    مات في خلافة المأمون قلت تتمة كلامه في غرة ربيع الآخر سنة ست ومائتين وفيها أرخه غير واحد وذكره بن حبان في الثقات وقال كان من خيار عباد الله تعالى ممن يحفظ حديثه وكان قد كف في آخر عمره وقال زكريا بن يحيى كنا نسمع أن يزيد من أحسن أصحابنا صلاة وأعلمهم بالسنة ذكر بن أبي خيثمة في تاريخه أنه كاتب أبي شيبة القاضي جد أبي بكر بن أبي شيبة قال وسمعت أبي يعني أبا خيثمة زهير بن حرب يقول كان يعاب على يزيد حين ذهب بصره ربما إذا سئل عن حديث لا يعرفه فيأمر جاريته فتحفظه من كتابه قال وسمعت يحيى بن معن يقول يزيد يدلس من أصحاب الحديث لأنه لا يميز ولا يبالي عمن روى وقال الفضل بن زياد قيل لأحمد يزيد بن هارون له فقه قال نعم ما كان أفطنه وأذكاه وأفهمه قيل له فابن علية قال كان له فقه لا أعلم إني لم أخبره خبرني يزيد ما كان أجمع أمر يزيد صاحب صلاة حافظ متقن للحديث صوانه وحسن مذهب وقال الزعفراني ما رأيت خيرا من يزيد وقال زياد بن أيوب ما رأيت له كتابا قط ولا حديثا إلا حفظا وقال أحمد بن الطيب سمعت يزيد يقول في هارون يعني مستمليه بلغني انك تريد أن تدخل علي في حديثي فاجهد جهدك لا أرعى الله تعالى عليك أن رعيت أحفظ ثلاثة وعشرين ألف حديث وقال الحسن بن عرفة قلت ليزيد بن هارون ما فعلت تلك العينان الجميلتان قال ذهب بهما بكار الاسحار وقال يعقوب بن شيبة ثقة وكان يعد من الآمرين بالمعروف والناهين عن المنكر وقال بن قانع ثقة مأمون

    I'll just translate the last line for benefit, and this won't do justice to all that has been written about him:

    وقال يعقوب بن شيبة ثقة وكان يعد من الآمرين بالمعروف والناهين عن المنكر وقال بن قانع ثقة مأمون
    Ya`qub bin Shaybah said, "Thiqah (authentic), and he was counted from those who enjoined the good and forbid the evil." Ibn Qani` said, "Thiqah Ma'mun (authentic, trustworthy)"

    Akhari is a horrible, horrible person. He will not spare the Salaf from his slanderous attacks either. I can't tolerate this guy at all.
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  13. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Pretty simple. Those qualified to do Ijtihaad do ijtihaad and the laymen do Taqleed of the scholar/s whom they trust.
  14. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Taqleed - a layman follows a scholar he trusts.

    Ijtihad - a scholar follows the best evidence according to him.
  15. Al-Kashmiri
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    Al-Kashmiri Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Apology accepted, but you still haven't returned my right.

    What fitnah are we involved in? I've come in to mod this thread and see a certain user cause disruption, behave rashly and end up banned. He comes back with a new account, acts as though he's someone else playing talbis, and then reports a bunch of posts by HH? The irony. Then it seems that all of you know each other too and so you were aware of his talbis.

    Then after I gave you some recommendations and requests to you and HH in particular, you still go on about us all favoring in the fitnah. Akhi, surely you don't mean all the other mods who've stayed out of this thread. Fair enough you mean thariq, samiha, al-fajr and probably now me.... That's unjust to include the rest.

    It's even more unjust Abu Musab, that cos we're 'in favour fitnah' you chose not to salaam or respond? So you don't give your opponents the rights they deserve, only your allies? That for me, speaks miles. It shows one unsuitable to even debate as it shows partisanship. However, I hope the state isn't this bad and that you didn't mean what you said.

    The biggest fitan I see here are a) manners of communication to which I've addressed both parties and tried to tackle b) the issue itself - to which the bigger fitnah for me, are the views you and the other brothers hold and how you are arguing for it. No way am I or the others favouring that. Finally c) the fitnah of a user being deceptive and misleading the public and us mods. Again, I'm not supporting that...
  16. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Wassalam
    - Yes it's fine that you follow the Shafi`i Madhhab as a coincidence.

    Just don't actively believe you are following the Shafi`i Madhhab or that you are a Shafi`i, because that would then require of you to believe it is the best Madhhab in order to legitimise and justify your adherence to that school, and it would require of you to actively go through an official process of choosing it as your preferred school of thought based on the modes of Tarjeeh (preference), if you know what I'm saying.

    - Following the strictest position all the time is an opinion in Taqleed, but it's not the only opinion out there.

    - You don't need to become paranoid. The layman's evidence is the fatwa of the trustworthy scholar itself. As you long as you have that fatwa and you are content with the scholar, that's enough. A layman has no business occupying himself with evidences and 'what if I'm wrong' thoughts.

    If your scholar is right, he'll get two rewards; if he's wrong he'll get one reward. Sin is out of the question.
  17. Ershad
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    Ershad Junior Member

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    :salam2:


    A question out of curiosity. Is there any university/scholar today that teach a particular madhab completely without being extreme in it?

    I guess there should be, I am just not aware of it. For e.g. Do people in Islamic University of Madinah/Umm Al-Qura get to learn a particular madhab completely?

    Baarakallahu feekum.
  18. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    Wassalam

    Define 'extreme'.

    As for universities specialising in one Madhhab, there are plenty. In fact, most do actually have one base Madhhab.

    This should not mean that all of these don't teach other Madhhabs at all, in separate lessons or as part of comparative studies.

    The level of depth in study varies from college to college.
  19. Ershad
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    Ershad Junior Member

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    By extreme, I meant the group of people who attribute different things to the madhab or the Imam which in reality never was the position of the Imam/madhab. I think you might be aware of such group of people. They wouldn't tolerate other opinions too.
  20. Harris Hammam
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    Harris Hammam Junior Member

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    I don't know of any university in the world who would do this in ordinary Fiqhi matters (apart from the Taqleed issue of course - you will find my Hanafi places pretty extreme).


    There are three types of things attributed to the Imams that are not actually theirs:

    1. Outright lies, like false beliefs and innovative practices. Of course, the Imams are free from them, and this deserves to be highlighted no matter where it originates from, universities or otherwise

    2. There is something called Takhreej, extracting fatwas for new situations based on the fatwas of the Imams. Takhreej is valid, though it is incorrect to directly attribute these new fatwas to the Imams. What you can say is that these new rulings are based on the principles of the Imam.

    3. Then you have individual scholars who came later on who based a ruling the found on some evidence they had, not in any connection to the principles of his Imam. These are personal fatwas of these scholars and must not be attributed to the Imams.

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