ISRAEL is the biggest terrorist organization in the world

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BGfromGB

Junior Member
Hamas and others do not want the jews wiped off the face of this earth. That is a misconception, but I guess that is why you are here :) . Muslims lived with jews peacefully since the time of the Prophet peace be upon Him.

The Hamas charter beginning with Article 6 tells me otherwise. Also are you telling me that Allah when he made an everlasting covenant would now see fit to break it? What kind of God is that?
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
BG,

I kindly advise you to be careful with your sarcastic and unthoughtful questions!
When you ask a question then in a decent manner!
What kind of God is that?
what sort of question is that?!
That is not very nice!
To your literal question, here you can learn who Allaah swt is:

Who Is Allah?
What is a Muslim?

Because a muslim does not know how to present his point you don't have to get naughty!
Please keep your decency as a person if not as a believer!
 

BGfromGB

Junior Member
Apology

BG,

I kindly advise you to be careful with your sarcastic and unthoughtful questions!
When you ask a question then in a decent manner!
what sort of question is that?!
That is not very nice!
To your literal question, here you can learn who Allaah swt is:

Who Is Allah?
What is a Muslim?

Because a muslim does not know how to present his point you don't have to get naughty!
Please keep your decency as a person if not as a believer!
Please accept my apologies. What I'm trying to say is that noway can G-d break a promise. He never has and never will.That's what I learnt as a christian and I'm sure its the same with Islam. A promise is a promise is a promise
 

Bluegazer

Junior Member
Hello BGfromGB,


I apologise for bringing up this point again, but it seems I didn't make myself clear in the question I asked you on post #68 on this thread. I will ask the question again, and this time I will colour the phrase that I want to focus on in red:


You said the following on post #54 on this thread:

Surely you can understand what YESHUA is alluding to. No one is perfect and we are not in a position to judge each other - we're all sinful. YESHUA ain't. He is the only person in a position to throw stones. Not us.


In post #69 -after quoting my question- you replied as follows:

No sir, I am not referring tomthat verse.
YESHUA as the son of the ELOHIM, was and IS totally without sin. There is none like him, not even Mohammed. Human mankind is full of sin. We will always sin and continue to sin until we die. I'm no exception. That fact that I continue to listen to classical symphonic music makes me a sinner over and over again. And yet I will not stop doing so. (I will be accountable to YHWH on that issue not the religious scholars) and because I am a sinner I am not in a position to judge other people. Thank you sir.


I will rephrase my question again:


By the phrase "we're all sinful. YESHUA ain't. He is the only person in a position to throw stones", were you alluding to the following verses of the Bible?:

They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

John 8:6-7 [New American Bible]


I would be grateful for your answer.


Best regards,

Bluegazer
 

ibn azem

Super Moderator
Staff member
Please accept my apologies. What I'm trying to say is that noway can G-d break a promise. He never has and never will.That's what I learnt as a christian and I'm sure its the same with Islam. A promise is a promise is a promise
You should apologise to your Creator, and sincerely seek His guidance if you want to be happy and find the True Path. We believe and worship the One Creator alone, you want to call Him God we call Him Allah: الله Allah is the proper name in Arabic for The One and Only God, The Creator and Sustainer of the universe. It is used by the Arab Christians and Jews for the God (Eloh-im in Hebrew; 'Allaha' in Aramaic, the mother tongue of Jesus, pbuh). The word Allah does not have a plural or gender. Allah does not have any associate or partner, and He does not beget nor was He begotten.

And Allah swt breaks His promise never - though I am not relating this answer to this topic in this thread, because I have not been involved in its discussion.

Just one of many Ayahs (Verses) where Allah makes that clear:

Our Lord! Verily, it is You Who will gather mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt. Verily, Allâh never breaks His Promise". Chapter: Al-'Imran (3) Verse #: 9
 

BGfromGB

Junior Member
Hi Bluegazer

Hello BGfromGB,


I apologise for bringing up this point again, but it seems I didn't make myself clear in the question I asked you on post #68 on this thread. I will ask the question again, and this time I will colour the phrase that I want to focus on in red:


You said the following on post #54 on this thread:




In post #69 -after quoting my question- you replied as follows:




I will rephrase my question again:


By the phrase "we're all sinful. YESHUA ain't. He is the only person in a position to throw stones", were you alluding to the following verses of the Bible?:



John 8:6-7 [New American Bible]


I would be grateful for your answer.


Best regards,

Bluegazer
Hi there my good friend. I'm certainly not a scholar nor am I particularly versed with the scriptures. I'll try my best so here goes.
John 8:6-7 To understand the full context I believe its important to read at least from verse 3 right up to verse 10
Vs 3 "The teachers of the law and the Phariseesbrought in a woman caught in adultry...
This sin cannot be committed alone, so the question arises as to why only 1 offender was brought. So obviously this incident was set up to trap YESHUA.
Vs 4 and said to Yeshua " Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. In the law Moses commanded us to stone such women.
being caught in the act . This compromising circumstance was not sufficient evidence as Jewish laws require witnesses
So they altered the law a little. The manner of executioonwas not prescribed unless the woman was a betrothed virgin. further, the law required the execution of both parties, not just the women.
Vs 6-8.The question was used as a trap. The Romans did not allow the Jews to carry out the death sentence. sO IF yeshua had to stone her he could have been in conflict with the Romans.If he told them not to stone her, he could have been accused of not supporting the law.
By writing on the ground is symbolic that the tablets were inscribed in stone by the finger of ELOHIM
without sin . This is quite general and means without any sin and not without this sin. So when he said 'let him be the first' he caught them by surprise. Since he spoke of 'throwing stones', he could not be accused of failure to uphold the law, but the qualification for throwing it prevented anyone from acting. And because they were conscience stricken they walked away B]
Hope that answers the question. Many thanks
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
The Hamas charter beginning with Article 6 tells me otherwise.

Salaam alaykum/Peace to all;

if somebody doesn´t know what is telling in Hamas Charter Article 6, let me help a little:

Article Six: Peculiarity and Independence
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine. Only under the shadow of Islam could the members of all regions coexist in safety and security for their lives, properties and rights. In the absence of Islam, conflict arises, oppression reigns, corruption is rampant and struggles and wars prevail. Allah had inspired the Muslim poet, Muhammad Iqbal, when he said:
When the Faith wanes, there is no security
There is no this-worldliness for those who have no faith
Those who wish to live their life without religion
Have made annihilation the equivalent of life.

All the Hamas Charter: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

This doesn´t sound very bad of my mind... but maybe the reason for this is because I am muslim and understand its meaning.

sister Harb
 

BGfromGB

Junior Member
Salaam alaykum/Peace to all;

if somebody doesn´t know what is telling in Hamas Charter Article 6, let me help a little:



All the Hamas Charter: http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

This doesn´t sound very bad of my mind... but maybe the reason for this is because I am muslim and understand its meaning.

sister Harb
So is Islam to be imposed even on people who do not want it. The Jews for example. If I am a palestinian christian and want nothing to do Islamic (Sharia) laws then by democratic process, it is my inaleinable right to vote on the matter. I do not need to be forcibly forced into accepting something against my will. But then I have no option do I. Seeing that the christians are a minority.
But of interest, Palestine under an Islamic leadership is far from the Utopia, you make it out to be. It will continue to be until such time ALL the people of that region recognise each other as human beings and who are answerable to their creator. I say it again and I've said it before. There are 2 sides to the coin. With only one side you dont have a coin.
 

BGfromGB

Junior Member
No rights for Israel

BGfromGB, this is for you again, because it seems you didn`t read it well the first time (remember, you are here to learn about Islam):



Hamas and others do not want the jews wiped off the face of this earth. That is a misconception, but I guess that is why you are here :) . Muslims lived with jews peacefully since the time of the Prophet peace be upon Him.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9474&highlight=muslims+jews+living

And some more facts: (no racism here)

The Jews do not have any stake in al-Quds, because even though they may have lived in the land previously, that land now belongs to the Muslims from two points of view:

1. The Jews disbelieved and are no longer following the religion of the believers among the Children of Israel who followed and supported Moosa and ‘Eesaa (peace be upon them).

2. We Muslims have more right to it than them, because land does not belong to the people who lived there first, but to those who establish the laws of Allaah therein. Allaah created the land, and He created people to worship Allaah in the land and to establish therein the religion, laws and rulings of Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“… Verily, the earth is Allaah’s. He gives it as a heritage to whom He wills of His slaves; and the (blessed) end is for the Muttaqoon (the pious).” [al-A’raaf 7:128]

Hence if some Arabs came who were not followers of Islam and they ruled the land with kufr, they would have to be fought until they submitted to the rule of Islam or were killed.

It is not the matter of race or ethnicity; it is the matter of Tawheed and Islam.

Here it is useful to quote the words of one of the researchers:

“History tells us that the first people to settle in Palestine were the Canaanites, six thousand years BCE. They were an Arab tribe who came to Palestine from the Arabian Peninsula, and after their arrival, Palestine was named after them [i.e., Canaan].”

(al-Suhyooniyyah, Nash’atuhaa, Tanzeemaatuhaa, In*!*!*!*!atuhaa, by Ahmad al-‘Awadi, p. 7).

“As for the Jews, the first time they entered Palestine was approximately six hundred years after Ibraheem had entered the land, i.e., they entered it approximately 1400 years BCE. So the Canaanites entered Palestine and lived there approximately 4500 years before the Jews.”

(Ibid., p. 8)

Hence it is clear that the Jews have no right to the land, whether according to religious law or in terms of who lived there first and possessed the land. They are aggressors who are seizing the land by force. We ask Allaah to rid Bayt al-Maqdis of them sooner rather than later, for He is Able to do that and He is Most Generous in answering. Praise be to Allaah, the Lord of the Worlds.


And just in case you bring up the scriptures talk again, here is our (Muslims) stance on it:

It is not permissible to obtain any of the previous scriptures which came before the Qur’aan, such as the Injeel (Gospel or New Testament), Tawraat (Torah or Old Testament) and others, for two reasons.

The first reason is that anything in them that is beneficial has been explained by Allaah in the Qur’aan.

The second reason is that the Qur’aan frees us from any need for these books. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur’aan) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it [Aal ‘Imraan 3:3]

“And We have sent down to you (O Muhammad) the Book (this Qur’aan) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Mohaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures). So judge among them by what Allaah has revealed [al-Maa’idah 5:48]


So whatever good may be in the previous books is to be found in the Qur’aan. So there is no need to look elsewhere.

Moreover, the Injeel (Gospel) that is existent today is distorted. The evidence for that is the fact that there are four Gospels which contradict one another; there is no one Gospel which can be relied upon.

But the seeker of knowledge who has sufficient knowledge to be able to tell truth from falsehood, may be allowed to read (the previous scriptures) in order to refute the falsehood found therein or to leave the followers of the scriptures with no excuse for not knowing that they are false.


Majmoo’ Fataawa wa Rasaa’il Fadeelat al-Shaykh Muhammad ibn Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him), vol. 1, p. 32-33

So please don`t mention the scriptures again. :astag:
With respect sir not according to the scriptures it isn't. As much as you and I dislike to hear it, Allah enterd into an everlasting covenant with those people. HE does not break covenants. HE never has and never will.

As an ex christian a non Jew and an undecided learner of Islam, it is unfortunately (or fortunately by the will of Allah) something I have to accept. HE is the decider

In case I get labelled a 'zionist supporter or Kffir, let me say this. Whether or you lable me or not , matters not. IT pains me to see that that beautiful land, loaned to us by Allah, being systematically destroyed by unnecessary and unwanton killings being perpetrated on BOTH sides. IT is time for ALL of us, friend or foe, to grow up and behave like civilised human beings. That is the least we can do for our creator.

Ultimately that land belongs to Allah and Allah alone. Who are we to abuse it.

If Islam means submission, then submission it must be. It is time to follow him and not misguided politicians. For truly the day will come when ALL will stand before Him. JEWS, GENTILES, MUSLIMS. No exceptions. He will take us to task for our hatred to one another and judge us accordingly. No doubt about that.

For my part, obsession for ownership of that land is not important.

What's really important is that I follow the will of Allah. Ultimately Allah will take care of the land. But he won't if we don't let him. My priority is Allah and no one else.Not even the mullas or imams,Prime ministers or Presidents If we are to enter the heavens then Allah demands that we respect one another and do to them as we would like them to do unto us. Even if that means embracing our enemy,Allah WILL reward us.

That is the cornerstone of MY faith and committment to Allah. MY needs are not of that land, but of Heaven and if I have to embrace my foe, as hard as it may be, then so be it. For He is oft merciful and oft forgiving, the 99 beautiful names of our creator. Thank you.
 

island muslim

Junior Member
As an ex christian a non Jew and an undecided learner of Islam, it is unfortunately (or fortunately by the will of Allah) something I have to accept. HE is the decider

In case I get labelled a 'zionist supporter or Kffir, let me say this. Whether or you lable me or not , matters not. IT pains me to see that that beautiful land, loaned to us by Allah, being systematically destroyed by unnecessary and unwanton killings being perpetrated on BOTH sides. IT is time for ALL of us, friend or foe, to grow up and behave like civilised human beings. That is the least we can do for our creator.

Dear BG from GB,

I wont label you anything but your support for israel and seemingly non caring atittude to palestinian suffering has been noted from your comments.

I got two questions.
1) In the above post you declare yourself to be "an ex christian" and an "undecided learner of islam" but if you scroll through all your posts you HAVE SAID that YOU are a christian.

2)From all your posts i notice that you type the word GOD as "G-D" which i KNOW for a fact ONLY JEWS DO. They cannot say the name of HASHEM, or GOD. So can you calirfy why you keep saying you are christian and now you are not??

I know jews are allowed subterfuge when dealing with GOYIM (thats us) but please be honest and clarify.

This thread was started to discuss the palestinian problem and now with your posts we could never get round to disccussing it. Can you please stick to the thread topic and open another thread where we can all talk to you about whatever you want to talk about. Let us all who want to talk about our palestinian brothers and sisters andf their suffering here do it in peace.

Thank you for your understanding.

Maldivian Muslim
 

sister herb

Official TTI Chef
So is Islam to be imposed even on people who do not want it. The Jews for example. If I am a palestinian christian and want nothing to do Islamic (Sharia) laws then by democratic process, it is my inaleinable right to vote on the matter. I do not need to be forcibly forced into accepting something against my will. But then I have no option do I. Seeing that the christians are a minority.
But of interest, Palestine under an Islamic leadership is far from the Utopia, you make it out to be. It will continue to be until such time ALL the people of that region recognise each other as human beings and who are answerable to their creator. I say it again and I've said it before. There are 2 sides to the coin. With only one side you dont have a coin.

Salaam alaykum/Peace to all;

I don´t see that Palestinian christians would have any dangers from Palestinian muslims, not even from Hamas. Let me give you some examples; before during elections at 2006 January, on the list of Hamas in Gaza were also even one christian candidate and later there were one christian Palestinian in the government (minister of tourism, if I remember right but he resigned in cause of his health problems last summer). The other example from the West Bank; last year after some unkindly statements of the Pope, head of the catholic church, some vandals attacked against christian churches in the West Bank and in many towns and villages for example members of the Islamic Jihad voluntary guarded the safety of those churches.

But what about destiny of Palestinian christians under the zionist occupation? Zionists don´t make any differencies between muslim Palestinians or christian Palestinians. Do you still remember what happened 5 years ago in Bethlehem, when IOF (Israeli Occupation Forces) sieged the Church of Nativity and three other churches in there? Propably you don´t remember. So, let me remind you a little:

Weekly Report
On Israeli Human Rights Violations in the Occupied
Palestinian Territories
April 04-10, 2002

Israeli Offensive on Bethlehem

Israeli occupation forces have maintained the siege on the Church of Nativity, three other churches, and a dormitory of priests and nuns of the Orthodox Church. On Friday, 5 April, Israeli forces sporadically shelled the Church of Nativity to force 250 Palestinians seeking refuge inside to surrender. The bell ringer of the Church, Samir Ibrahim Salman, 42, was killed by Israeli fire. Israeli forces also destroyed the southern gate of the Church and a number of Israeli soldiers moved into its southern yard.

On Sunday, 7 April, the body of a member of the Palestinian National Security Force was discovered. He was hit by several live bullets and is still unidentified.

On Monday morning, 8 April, Israeli occupation forces surrounding the Church of Nativity opened fire at the Church. Fire broke out in a room of a priest. People inside the Church rushed to extinguish fire. Israeli forces fired at them, killing 23-year-old Khaled Mousa Abu Siam with a live bullet in the head.

At approximately 18:00 on Wednesday, 10 April, Israeli occupation forces on the Jerusalem-Hebron road in Bethlehem shot dead ‘Ali Kahlil Mohammed Faraj, 60, with a live bullet in the chest.

Source: http://www.pchrgaza.ps/files/W_report/English/2002/11-04-2002.htm

sister Harb

And p.s.
It will continue to be until such time ALL the people of that region recognise each other as human beings

There is no problem that muslims would not understand so simple principle, but I also wait the time when zionists will recognise other people as human beings and are ready to treat others by respected way. Now they listen too much the such leaders like Lieberman for example...
 

Bluegazer

Junior Member
Hello BGfromGB,


Thank you for your response and your kind explanation of the meanings of the verses in your post #86 on this thread.


I admit that I should have read your posts more carefully, since your mentioned -more explicitly- the verses I referred to [John 8:6-7].


In your post #41 you wrote:

As Yeshua said " Let him who is without sin, cast the 1st stone"


And in your post #47 you wrote:

Where did you source that from. Its not in the scriptures.Nor is it in the Koran. When Yeshua said Let him (meaning everybody noy just the Jews) who is without sin (again not only the Jews), cast the first stone. This applies to all of us


I apologise for not reading your posts more carefully.


I will now discuss something that apparently has no connection to the Story of the Adulteress [John 7:53-8:11], but you'll see why as you read on.


To begin with, I was surprised by your following statement [in post #50]:

Myself and not being Jewish nor christian nor muslim will have views which are diametrically opposite to yours. That sir, is the tragedy of the situation. So lets agree to disagree. Otherwise this whole thread becomes a slanging match and not an intelligent debate.
But one thing is for sure. G-d made an everlasting covenant with the Jews. He promised to to bring them back to a land flowing with milk and honey. This is mentioned numerous times in the scriptures.
Now before you label me being anti muslim. I'm not. Nor am I a Jew. I believe in what the scriptures say. I also believe in what the Koran says. I have no reason to believe otherwise.


I was glad to read that you believe in "what the Koran says". And yet, you also state that "I believe in what the scriptures say". I assume you're referring to the Bible.


In the Qur'an, God Almighty said that he did indeed reveal Sacred Scriptures, and that the Torah and Gospel were of those Sacred Scriptures revealed to the Messengers Moses and Jesus Christ [peace be upon them] respectively.


For example, read the following translation of the meaning of the Qur'an:

He has sent down upon you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming what was before it. And He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Before, as guidance for the people. And He revealed the Criterion [i.e., the Qur'an]

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 3:3-4]


Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light.

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 5:44]


and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 5:46]


So, as a Muslim, I have to believe that there were other Holy Books that were revealed to other Messengers of God.


However, I also have to believe that these previous scriptures did not survive intact and that the scriptures found today have been corrupted by inserted fabrications and deletions. Please read the following translations of the meanings of verses of the Qur'an:


And indeed, there is among them a party who alter the Scripture with their tongues so you may think it is from the Scripture, but it is not from the Scripture. And they say, "This is from Allah ," but it is not from Allah . And they speak untruth about Allah while they know.

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 3:78]



So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 2:79]


These fabrications and deletions can also be proved by the contradiction found between some Biblical verses and some Qur'anic verses.


For example, in the Bible we find the following:

And about three o'clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Matthew 27:46 [New American Bible]


In the Qur'an, God Almighty said:

And [We cursed them] for their breaking of the covenant and their disbelief in the signs of Allah and their killing of the prophets without right and their saying, "Our hearts are wrapped". Rather, Allah has sealed them because of their disbelief, so they believe not, except for a few. And [We cursed them] for their disbelief and their saying against Mary a great slander, And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain. Rather, Allah raised him to Himself. And ever is Allah Exalted in Might and Wise.

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 4:155-158]


So, in the Qur'an God Almighty told us that Jesus Christ [peace be upon him] was not crucified, and therefore if you believe in the Qur'an then you must also believe that the story found in the Bible that speaks of Jesus Christ's [peace be upon him] supposed crucifixion is a fabrication.


There are other examples of a statement in the Bible that contradicts a statement in the Qur'an. I'll just mention two of these examples:


In the Bible, you find the following:

In six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the LORD has blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Exodus 20:11 [New American Bible]


God Almighty said:

And We did certainly create the heavens and earth and what is between them in six days, and there touched Us no weariness

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 50:38]


And


In the Bible, you find the following:

As he drew near the camp, he saw the calf and the dancing. With that, Moses' wrath flared up, so that he threw the tablets down and broke them on the base of the mountain. Taking the calf they had made, he fused it in the fire and then ground it down to powder, which he scattered on the water and made the Israelites drink. Moses asked Aaron, "What did this people ever do to you that you should lead them into so grave a sin?" Aaron replied, "Let not my lord be angry. You know well enough how prone the people are to evil. They said to me, 'Make us a god to be our leader; as for the man Moses who brought us out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has happened to him.' So I told them, 'Let anyone who has gold jewelry take it off.' They gave it to me, and I threw it into the fire, and this calf came out." When Moses realized that, to the scornful joy of their foes, Aaron had let the people run wild,

Exodus 32:19-25 [New American Bible]


Allah the Exalted said:

And the people of Moses made, after [his departure], from their ornaments a calf - an image having a lowing sound. Did they not see that it could neither speak to them nor guide them to a way? They took it [for worship], and they were wrongdoers. And when regret overcame them and they saw that they had gone astray, they said, "If our Lord does not have mercy upon us and forgive us, we will surely be among the losers." And when Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved, he said, "How wretched is that by which you have replaced me after [my departure]. Were you impatient over the matter of your Lord?" And he threw down the tablets and seized his brother by [the hair of] his head, pulling him toward him. [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, indeed the people oppressed me and were about to kill me, so let not the enemies rejoice over me and do not place me among the wrongdoing people." [Moses] said, "My Lord, forgive me and my brother and admit us into Your mercy, for You are the most merciful of the merciful."

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 7:148-151]

Note: the above is the translation edited by Saheeh International [ISBN 9960792633] I believe the underlined phrase would be better translated as " calf (a mere) body" since it corresponds better to the original Arabic عِجْلاً جَسَداً

And Allah the Almighty said:

[Allah said], "And what made you hasten from your people, O Moses?" He said, "They are close upon my tracks, and I hastened to You, my Lord, that You be pleased." [Allah] said, "But indeed, We have tried your people after you [departed], and the Samiri has led them astray." So Moses returned to his people, angry and grieved. He said, "O my people, did your Lord not make you a good promise? Then, was the time [of its fulfillment] too long for you, or did you wish that wrath from your Lord descend upon you, so you broke your promise [of obedience] to me?" They said, "We did not break our promise to you by our will, but we were made to carry burdens from the ornaments of the people [of Pharaoh], so we threw them [into the fire], and thus did the Samiri throw." And he extracted for them [the statue of] a calf which had a lowing sound, and they said, "This is your god and the god of Moses, but he forgot." Did they not see that it could not return to them any speech and that it did not possess for them any harm or benefit? And Aaron had already told them before [the return of Moses], "O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order." They said, "We will never cease being devoted to it [i.e., the calf] until Moses returns to us." [Moses] said, "O Aaron, what prevented you, when you saw them going astray, from following me? Then have you disobeyed my order?" [Aaron] said, "O son of my mother, do not seize [me] by my beard or by my head. Indeed, I feared that you would say, 'You caused division among the Children of Israel, and you did not observe [or await] my word.' " [Moses] said, "And what is your case, O Samiri?" He said, "I saw what they did not see, so I took a handful [of dust] from the track of the messenger and threw it, and thus did my soul entice me." [Moses] said, "Then go. And indeed, it is [decreed] for you in [this] life to say, 'No contact.' And indeed, you have an appointment [in the Hereafter] you will not fail to keep. And look at your 'god' to which you remained devoted. We will surely burn it and blow it into the sea with a blast. Your god is only Allah , except for whom there is no deity. He has encompassed all things in knowledge." Thus, [O Muhammad], We relate to you from the news of what has preceded. And We have certainly given you from Us a message [i.e., the Qur'an].

[Translation of the meanings of the Qur'an 20:83-99]



Note: the above is the translation edited by Saheeh International [ISBN 9960792633] I believe the underlined phrase would be better translated as "a calf (a mere) body" since it corresponds better to the original Arabic عِجْلاً جَسَداً


I hope you realise from the above examples that one cannot believe in all of the verses of the Qur'an unless he also believes that the previous scriptures were corrupted, because:

1- Allah the Almighty told us [in the Qur'an] that the previous scriptures were corrupted.

2- There are stories in both the Qur'an and the Bible that contradict each other.


Now, as a Muslim, the above is all the evidence I need for me to believe that the Bible was corrupted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will now present further evidence -from Christian sources- that show the Bible was corrupted, for the benefit of non Muslims.



And here we come back once more to the Story of the Adulteress [John 7:53-8:11].


These verses of the Bible that you alluded to are known for a fact to be a fabrication, since they were inserted by someone other than the original author of the Gospel of John.


I will post the Story of the Adulteress as it is shown in the New American Bible [which is a Roman Catholic English version]:

17 Then each went to his own house, while Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. But early in the morning he arrived again in the temple area, and all the people started coming to him, and he sat down and taught them. Then the scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery and made her stand in the middle. They said to him, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the very act of committing adultery. Now in the law, Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?" They said this to test him, so that they could have some charge to bring against him. Jesus bent down and began to write on the ground with his finger. But when they continued asking him, he straightened up and said to them, "Let the one among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her." Again he bent down and wrote on the ground. And in response, they went away one by one, beginning with the elders. So he was left alone with the woman before him. Then Jesus straightened up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" She replied, "No one, sir." Then Jesus said, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, (and) from now on do not sin any more."

Source of John 7:53: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXF.HTM
Source of John 8:1-11: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXG.HTM


17 [⇒ 7:53-⇒ 8:11] The story of the woman caught in adultery is a later insertion here, missing from all early Greek manuscripts. A Western text-type insertion, attested mainly in Old Latin translations, it is found in different places in different manuscripts: here, or after ⇒ John 7:36 or at the end of this gospel, or after ⇒ Luke 21:38, or at the end of that gospel. There are many non-Johannine features in the language, and there are also many doubtful readings within the passage. The style and motifs are similar to those of Luke, and it fits better with the general situation at the end of Luke 21:but it was probably inserted here because of the allusion to ⇒ Jeremiah 17:13 (cf the note on John ⇒ John 8:6) and the statement, "I do not judge anyone," in ⇒ John 8:15. The Catholic Church accepts this passage as canonical scripture.

Source of footnote 17: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__PXF.HTM

[I have coloured the relevant parts in red and underlined and and highlighted the word "all"]



Now, you could clearly see that the Bible posted on the official Vatican website says that the Story of the Adulteress is absent from all early Greek manuscripts. And the Catholic Church accepting this passage as canonical scripture carries no weight, because they are even more erroneous by worshiping Jesus Christ [peace be upon him] and the Holy Spirit alongside God Almighty, while they should only worship God Almighty and believe in His Oneness, not in a trinity. They should also believe that Muhammad [peace be upon him] was the last Messenger of God Almighty.


What does other English Protestant versions of the Bible have to say about the Story of the Adulteress?:

((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))

New International Version


Later mss add the story of the adulterous woman, numbering it as John 7:53-8:11

Footnote (a) to John 7:53
The New American Standard Bible


John 7:53 to 8:11 is absent from most of the older manuscripts, and those that have it sometimes place it elsewhere. The story may well be authentic. Indeed, Christ's response of compassion and mercy is so much in keeping with His character that we accept it as authentic, and feel that to omit it would be most unfortunate.

Footnote (a) to to John 7:53, I have coloured the word "may" in red.
The Amplified Bible.


[The most ancient Greek manuscripts do not include John 7:53–8:11.]

New Living Translation



[The earliest manuscripts do not include John 7:53-8:11]

English Standard Version


The words And everyone through sin no more (8:11) are bracketed by NU-Text as not original. They are present in over 900 manuscripts.

Footnote (a) to John 7:53
New King James Version


[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.]

Today's New International Version


To be fair and not to mislead you, there are other English versions that do not mention that John 7:53-8:11 was a later insertion. These versions include the King James Version, the 21st Century King James Version, the American Standard Version and others.


If you want to check out these quotations, go to www.biblegateway.com and enter John 7:53-8:11 on the left field while changing the version on the right field.


You also have the documentary Who Wrote the Bible? that was aired on Christmas Day 2004 in the UK on Channel 4. It was presented by Dr. Robert Beckford [a Christian Theologian].


Dr Robert Beckford, is looking for for good answers to what sounds like a simple question: Who wrote the Bible?

It's a question that has preoccupied biblical scholars for several generations but Beckford, who is director of the Centre for Black Theology at the University of Birmingham, forsakes the library and takes to the road in a journey from Jerusalem to Rome and on to the USA (with a stopover in Walthamstow). On the way, he talks to American pilgrims shouldering crosses on the streets of Jerusalem, to the head of the Pope's Bible Institute, to a former criminal and boxing promoter in East London, and many more.

http://robertbeckford.co.uk/taxonomy/term/2+3


And you can also check out the Channel 4 website about this documentary:

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/C/can_you_believe_it/debates/bible.html


But who's Dr. Robert Beckford?

Robert Beckford is Reader in Black Theology and Culture at Oxford Brookes University, Oxford, and is the author of a number of books in the field of religion, popular culture and politics, including a study of Gang Culture in Birmingham and an examination of the hermeneutical quality of reggae-dub.

A teacher for most of his life, he first taught adult literacy at Bournville College in the early 1990s and progressed to become a tutor in theology at Queens College in Birmingham (1992-8) where he taught trainee clergy. He began teaching at the University in 1999, working first as a research fellow with offenders at Birmingham prison and then moving to the teaching staff in 2001. He Joined Oxford Brookes as the Reader in Black Theology and Popular Culture in January 2007.

A firm believer in teaching for social change, Robert also educates in community centres, care homes and male prisons. He currently supervises post graduate students in religion, politics and cultural studies.

As well as teaching Robert has presented a number of documentaries for the BBC and Channel 4 covering a range of subjects including Jamaican Independence, the rise of fundamentalist Christianity, historical revisions of empire, the Bible and world conflict, Gospel Music, Reparations and Patron Saints. He gained a BAFTA in 2001 for diversity in educational broadcasting. He is currently the presenter of the Sunday Morning Show on BBC WM.

Source: http://robertbeckford.co.uk/node/1


According to an article by Liz Ford published in the Guardian newspaper on 17th of May, 2005, Robert Beckford studied religion and sociology at Houghton College in New York, [U.S.A.], received his Masters degree in Hermeneutics at what was then London Bible College, in Middlesex, and is now the London School of Theology and finally received his PhD degree from the University of Birmingham.


Source: http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/profile/story/0,11109,1485116,00.html


I strongly suggest you watch the documentary Who Wrote the Bible? by clicking on the following link. It's 1 hour and 40 minutes long:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7785317849743909385&q=



And here's where I come to my main point.

When you wrote in post #91 that:


As much as you and I dislike to hear it, Allah enterd into an everlasting covenant with those people. HE does not break covenants. HE never has and never will.

As an ex christian a non Jew and an undecided learner of Islam, it is unfortunately (or fortunately by the will of Allah) something I have to accept. HE is the decider


And in post #81 that:

Also are you telling me that Allah when he made an everlasting covenant would now see fit to break it?


And in post #83 that:

What I'm trying to say is that noway can G-d break a promise. He never has and never will.That's what I learnt as a christian and I'm sure its the same with Islam. A promise is a promise is a promise


And in post #50:


But one thing is for sure. G-d made an everlasting covenant with the Jews. He promised to to bring them back to a land flowing with milk and honey. This is mentioned numerous times in the scriptures.
Now before you label me being anti muslim. I'm not. Nor am I a Jew. I believe in what the scriptures say.


And in post #35:

The Jews are part of Gods creation, and whether we like it or not, The almighty made a covenant with them. There are abundant passages in the scriptures to verify this.


From all of your above statements, I can see that you firmly believe that the Jews were promised the Holy Land for eternity in the Biblical scriptures.


You first have to understand that:

1- We Muslims believe [because of the above mentioned verses of the Qur'an] that the Bible was corrupted. Therefore, however many times you mention the scriptures [i.e., the Bible] it just won't change our minds. And if you believe in what the Qur'an [I'm referring to your statement in post #50 "I also believe in what the Koran says."] then you must also conclude that the Bible was corrupted.

2- Even Christians should rethink their belief that the Bible is the Word of God. I have quoted to you what many versions of the Bible say about a certain passage [John 7:53-8:11]. This passage is taken for granted by Christians to be an actual fact, while the Bible versions I mentioned say that it was a forgery inserted into the Bible.


So, the conclusion is that the Bible was corrupted. Therefore, how can you firmly believe that the Holy Land belongs to the Jews? What is the basis of your conviction?


In the end, BGfromGB, I realise that this post might seem very aggressive. I'm not trying to hurt your feelings or anything of the sort. I just feel that you came to this forum to see the candid and honest opinion of Muslims, and the above was certainly my candid and honest opinion


I hope you all the best BGfromGB.

Best regards,

Bluegazer
 

MOSABJA

Junior Member
LOOK AT YOURSELF

Well I have heard much about Israel .Let us talk about Arabs .These Arabs are so rich and yet they do not defend themselves. They spend their money on hotels and luxurious things . Look at DUBAI. I think it is an AZAAB from ALLAH that Israel is openly doing everything and yet these Arabs don't even think of strengthening their defence .LOOK AT EXAMPLE OF PAKISTAN.A third world poor country but still has the most powerful Military in the Muslim world.It is the only nuclear power in Islamic world. Ex PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN ZULFIQAR ALI BHUTTO said

"People of Pakistan will eat leaves and grass will go hungry and will do anything, but will make nuclear bomb "

Israel threatened Pakistan many times but it dared not attack us .It is still the prime supplier of weapons to enemy of PAKISTAN ,INDIA.

ARABS SAY "We will be destroyed, we will be humiliated but we will not stop spending billios of dollars on luxury hotels and parks.
 

justoneofmillion

Junior Member
this is not the first time!!!!!!!!!!!

Well I have heard much about Israel .Let us talk about Arabs .These Arabs are so rich and yet they do not defend themselves. They spend their money on hotels and luxurious things . Look at DUBAI. I think it is an AZAAB from ALLAH that Israel is openly doing everything and yet these Arabs don't even think of strengthening their defence .LOOK AT EXAMPLE OF PAKISTAN.A third world poor country but still has the most powerful Military in the Muslim world.It is the only nuclear power in Islamic world. Ex PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN ZULFIQAR ALI BHUTTO said

"People of Pakistan will eat leaves and grass will go hungry and will do anything, but will make nuclear bomb "

Israel threatened Pakistan many times but it dared not attack us .It is still the prime supplier of weapons to enemy of PAKISTAN ,INDIA.

ARABS SAY "We will be destroyed, we will be humiliated but we will not stop spending billios of dollars on luxury hotels and parks.
assalamu aleikum, i would kindly advice you to hold you tongue next time and avoid generalising use the word "arabe leaders it is more appropriate!" 1000 and 1000 of your arab brothers have been going for jihad in afghanistan ,chechenya, kashmir,bosnia,iraq from europe from everywhere risking their lives for this ummah and i myself have three uncle who have died as shahid alhamdulilah and do not forget that has it been without the what you call arabs(alhamdulilah) islam would never have reached spain indonesia,north africa,west africa east africa.....etc am myself half arab so avoid to generalise next time because i know some arabs who would teach you and anybody in here their religion without anydoubt! inschallah pray that your arab brothers will get rid of their dictators because they are among the ones who are suffering right now in palestine and iraq!so avoid generalising!


wassalam

SINDBAD
 

Oem Soufiane

Junior Member
Well I have heard much about Israel .Let us talk about Arabs .These Arabs are so rich and yet they do not defend themselves. They spend their money on hotels and luxurious things . Look at DUBAI. I think it is an AZAAB from ALLAH that Israel is openly doing everything and yet these Arabs don't even think of strengthening their defence .LOOK AT EXAMPLE OF PAKISTAN.A third world poor country but still has the most powerful Military in the Muslim world.It is the only nuclear power in Islamic world. Ex PRESIDENT OF PAKISTAN ZULFIQAR ALI BHUTTO said

"People of Pakistan will eat leaves and grass will go hungry and will do anything, but will make nuclear bomb "

Israel threatened Pakistan many times but it dared not attack us .It is still the prime supplier of weapons to enemy of PAKISTAN ,INDIA.

ARABS SAY "We will be destroyed, we will be humiliated but we will not stop spending billios of dollars on luxury hotels and parks.


salaam aleikum wa rahmatulahi wa barakatuh,

I have read a few of your post and in everyone i read, you almost worship pakistan. I don't meen to be rude but in this dunya there is not one pure islamic state, where shariah rules. Pakistan isn't one either.
 

BGfromGB

Junior Member
Israel wiping out Palestine

Salaam alaykum;

by the way, what is so wrong if Hamas would like to wipe Isreal out of the map then? This is just what Isreal wants to do, wipe out Palestine and all Palestinians away.

If you search information from Hamas to the question like that, then yes, they resist the zionist terrorism against Palestinian civilians and the zionist state called "Israel" but they don´t hate all the jews and they don´t even want to exile every of them away from Palestine.

sister Harb
And your proof is? By the way I do not wish to continue with with this discussion. Not because I have nothing to hide. But I was sensured by the moderator of this site. He told me this is a site for Islamic discussion. Not debate. I gave him my undertaking that I would not enter/create debates. So if you have a problem please feel free to raise the matter with him. Thank you
 

BGfromGB

Junior Member
Hi Bluegazer
Its humble and polite people like you that make me want to know more about Islam.

Its people like you, and who goes to great lengths to politely and calmly explain what Islam is really about.

You are a credit to your religion.

Unlike some of the posts I receive which are blunt, crude, and in some cases threatening. These posts I just plainly ignore. At one stage I came very close to shutting my computer to this Islamic forum.

Unfortunately I have to go to work now. But I will study your post as soon as I can. May HE bless you. Thank you sir.
 

Zaarah

Junior Member
Assalamu alayhum,

I've just sat for twenty minutes and read every post in this topic and it's made for really interesting reading.

As far as I understand there are three sides (is that possible?) to this issue: The palestinian people who want to live on their land self governed and in peace, the Israeli's who believe Israel has been given to them as a gift from God as they are the chosen people and the Zionists who have their own agenda of middle eastern domination.

Every religion believes their's to be the true religion - otherwise why would they follow it? So it's understandable that Jews would want to live on the land which they believe is their biblical right. However, approximately 80% of Jews are Ashkenazi and originate from a tribe in middle Europe and not the Jews of the Middle East at all.

I've watched so many documentaries about Palestine, both pro and anti occupation and my breath has caught in my throat at times at the blatant and agressiive racism which is edured by the Palestinians on a daily basis.

Equality and to live life without threat of violence are basic tenents of human rights but are denied to Palestinians as a matter of course. I think it's important that we remain intact as a collective voice of Islam and do all we can to help our opressed brothers and sisters in Palestine and elsewhere.

Sorry this post is a bit discursive, I just didn't want it to turn into a diatribe ;p

Wasalaam ayalkum
 
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