MUSLIMS TAKING OVER EUROPE

Discussion in 'New and Current Affairs' started by esperanza, Aug 17, 2011.

  1. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    Continuing the threads topic...

    So its perceive as a Challenge by the very same ones who started the propoganda? Propaganda will use any means to achieve its ends, numbers, cooked up numbers, stories, twisted stories, Lies .... name it. Have you read how the Crusaders spread propoganda .. sword in one hand Quran in the other?? Incase this sword twist Inspires, then such a one should show the restraint. keep the sword thought aside and dwelve deep into history to know how men bowed to Almighty thro sheer power of their Imaan, it was not thro the sheer power of military drill.
  2. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    Continuing threads topic...

    The word dominance is close to oppression ... so careful about where you use it ..... Over analysis this seems to be, like the stock market falling down, and people expressing sentiments....

    Even if an entire society (say GeographyXYZ) was to turn to Islam, the phrase - "Muslims taking over Europe" is incorrect, its just "That society in GeographyXYZ is enlightened and accepts truth , Believes in Almighty, in peace with creator ".... It was Almighty's will. I would still be worried about, where do I stand in Almightys sight.
  3. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    @ Yusuf: Will answer soon inshaa'Allaah.

    Also, it might be worth considering to answer my questions before firing questions at me. I have, by the permission of Allaah, already refuted your 'IDEOLOGY'- and you have not mentioned anything about it. Shall I take your silence as your acceptance of your mistakes?

    Whatever the case- when I get a bit more time today... I will answer inshaa'Allaah
  4. YusufN
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    YusufN Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    Thank you. I will answer your questions but I don't know how to multi-quote like you did :( So for now I will make each answer as a separate comment.
  5. sister herb
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    sister herb Official TTI Chef

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    :salam2:

    I am surprised about your opinions. No sword, just Quran. Christianity came for example to my country by sword. Islam comes by much more soft way.

    Muslims in Europe are little crusaders. We tell to others about islam and they make they decide if they want to be muslims or not.

    :hearts:

    No need to see it as threat. But as challenge.

    Welcome to islamic Europe.
  6. harqalada
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    harqalada New Member

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    I understand and agree... I am not very familiar with many English subtleties of meaning unfortunately, but this is definitely a very important distinction to make.
  7. ShahnazZ
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    ShahnazZ Striving2BeAStranger

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    :salam2:

    I apologize but I can't really keep silent on this. I understand that Brother Thariq stated he would respond to you but here's my own stance on this before he posts his.

    I'm sorry brother, but did you even bother to research any of the ahadith you quoted? Frankly, I'm surprised. It's evident that the flaw is not in the ahadith themselves nor Imam Bukhari or Muslim r.a. but in YOUR understanding of their compilations.

    I know you're awaiting Brother Thariq's response on all of the mentioned ahadith but I can address some of them. Any Muslim usually can and that's why this is so surprising.

    I've pulled out my own copy of Sahih Al Bukhari as well so I can see exactly which ahadith you're referring to.

    Bismillah.

    Up first:

    The Quran NEVER said that RasulAllah :saw: DIDN'T perform miracles. The ayah you just quoted states that the DISBELIEVERS said he did not produce a sign. I'm not going to go into this one too much since I do not want to say anything out of turn but if you're right and the Quran said he didn't perform miracles, then how do you explain this ayah:

    [Al-Qamar 54:1: The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder.]

    This ayah pertains to when the people of Makkah requested that RasulAllah :saw: show them a miracle and he showed them the splitting of the moon by Allah's Permission. Do you deny that?

    Additionally, the Quran ITSELF is a miracle and was revealed to the the Prophet :saw:.

    Also do you believe in Isra and Miraj? Would you not count those as miracles?

    Next:

    I'm going to leave the details to Brother Thariq but if you're going to use that ayah to support your stance, I can use this one:

    [Ta-Ha 20:109] “On that day no intercession shall avail, except the one for whom the Most Gracious (Allaah) has given permission and whose word is acceptable to Him

    Barring the fact that you don't believe in Bukhari's ahadith, who do you believe is more favorable to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala than our beloved Rasul :saw:?

    I'm not going to go into this one in depth either since it requires more research than I have time for, but do you truly believe that the average human being is like the Prophet :saw:?

    He was unlike you and me.

    4. ALLAH CAN BE SEEN? (astaghfiruallah)

    This one baffled me most of all. Is this a joke?

    The hadith you just quoted was pertaining to seeing Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in JANNAH.

    [al-Qiyaamah :22-23]“Some faces that Day shall be Naadirah (shining and radiant). Looking at their Lord (Allaah)”

    and in regards to the disbelievers

    [al-Mutafiffoon 83:15] “Nay! Surely, they (evil doers) will be veiled from seeing their Lord that Day”

    The hadith wasn't talking about seeing Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala in this world, but in Paradise.

    This is based on the generality of human beings when it comes to forgetfulness.

    Are you telling me that if someone memorizes Quran and then doesn't repeat his or her recitation for a very long time, that they don't run the risk of forgetting what they learned? Are you familiar that hufadh who have already memorized the Quran make a habit of constantly reciting it from start to finish with their shuyookh so as not to forget what they've learned?

    Even I myself have had times where I've memorized a surah, didn't repeat it for a few days or months, and completely forgot what I memorized.



    Again, not touching this one. I'll leave it to Brother Thariq inshAllah.

    Akhi, if you're intent on believing that the most authentic Hadith collector in history was flawed in his collection despite the proof that is presented to you, that is your prerogative.

    However, please note that before recording each hadith, Imam Bukhari would pray 2 rak'ats and supplicate to Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala. Additionally, many religious scholars of Islam have tried to do what you're doing and looked for faults in his hadith collection but could find NONE. No disrespect intended, but I doubt you know more than the consensus of the ulema and many of the conditions you yourself stated for accepting a hadith are questionable (i.e. only if they fit your "strict criteria").

    It is for this precise reason that his collection was lacking any flaws that most religious scholars of Islam consider Sahih Al-Bukhari the most authentic book after the very Book of Allah, the Holy Quran itself.

    We're all human beings and we make mistakes. You and I included. Therefore, when speaking about those who are considered one of the most knowledgeable scholars of all time, it would be a good idea to do plenty of research before declaring them as such, including looking at the opinions of men who have devoted their lives to studying Islam, particularly those in Mecca and Medinah. Even so, we would be safer in the Eyes of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala by not passing judgment on anyone who has been given the knowledge of Islam, when we ourselves are lacking.

    Hope this gets you thinking at least.
  8. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

    Apologies, I got busy yesterday. Maa shaa’Allaah you did an excellent job in answering.

    I would just like to add some additional points to what sister Shanaz mentioned.

    Just to let you know- at one point in time, the whole ummah agreed upon both Bukhaari and Muslim. So, again either you are right after a 1000+ years and that the ummah was upon misguidance or the agreement of the Ummah is correct.
    Thank you but I will stick to the agreement of the Ummah
    Maa shaa’Allaah sister Shanaz’s reply suffices for you. Excellent reply.

    And by the way regarding what Sister Shanaz said about Israa… It was one of the miracles performed by the Messenger of Allaah :saw2:. Here is what Allaah said about it as well:
    Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing. [Soorah al-Israa’: 1]

    Additional to the ayaat Sister Shanaz quoted… there are plenty more where Allaah mentioned about no one having the permission to intercede except whom He has permitted. Check Ayal al-Kursi [2:255]- the most famous ayah that is memorized by the muslims.

    Another point I would like to add is the fact that the Messenger of Allaah :saw2: will intercede on the day of Judgement is Mutawaatir. Judging from what you know of the Qur’aan and Sunnah- I am guessing you have no clue what this means and that will require for you to some Google search. But just to give you a brief summary.

    The Qur’aan was initially not written as it is known. The Qur’aan was preserved in a ‘Mutawaatir’ form- which means there is no room for doubt that every word from the Qur’aan is what the Prophet :saw2: recited and conveyed to us, which was recited to him from Jibreel- which was heard by Jibreel from Allaah Subhaanah.

    Similarly, the narration about the Prophet’s intercession is Mutawaatir and there is no doubt that it will take place. It was narrated by a very very large number of people (just like how the Qur’aan was recited by a very large number of people and passed down for generations).

    Scholars even mentioned that the one who denies anything from the Qur’aan or Mutawaatir narrations has left the fold of Islaam- and Imaam Ghazali quoted a consensus on this. In fact Ibn Taymiyyah explicitly mentioned that the one who denies the intercession of the Prophet :saw2: on the Day of Judgement is an apostate. Now, I ain’t calling anyone an apostate- rather just mentioning for information purposes.
    Since, we have established that the Prophet :saw2: did do miracles by the permission of Allaah. It is from one of the miracles that Allaah allowed the Prophet to hear the dead in this case.

    Along with the evidences provided by sister Shanaz- these narrations about the believers seeing Allaah on the day of Judgement is Mutawaatir. It was narrated by over 30 of the companions!
    This is the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Please don’t make yourself look bad on a public forum.


    It would be a contradiction if there was an ayah in the Qur’aan mentioning that NO Apostate should EVER be killed and the Prophet :saw2: said otherwise.

    As I mentioned previously- the authentic narrations will never contradict the Qur’aan.

    Allaah said in Soorah al-Haaqqah: 44-46 “And if he (Muhammad SAW) had forged a false saying concerning Us. We surely should have seized him by his right hand. And then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta).”

    Wassalaamu `alaykum
  9. Just a Guy
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    Just a Guy Reinventing Myself

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    :salam2:

    Being a history nerd, I thought I knew some things about the birth of Islam and its spread in roughly 100 years throughout Africa and Asia and into Europe. Of course, everything I had read was written from a Western perspective, so I had this misconception about Islam being spread through the sword.

    To be sure, there was some of that, but by and large, Islam was spread through largely peaceful means, through merchants and missionaries instead of conquering armies.

    The same can be argued of Christianity during the Crusades, and this is from a former Christian who once hated Islam. When the Crusaders entered Jerusalem during the First Crusade, they slaughtered both Jews and Muslims. When the Muslims reconquered Jerusalem, the Muslims spared the city.
  10. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    :salam2:

    sword in one hand thats Dejjaals (Lehnathullaahi alaihi) method and not Muslims. And well the yield of sword, was it not, which swept south america... You might want to research into how spanish spread soo fast??

    Since you are history nerd, explore into what finally united europe against turks and how the then europe managed to stop the march at Spain and then reclaim spain back.

    Yes the whole world is clouded in layers of propaganda. In short history does give insights of how propaganda works...
  11. YusufN
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    YusufN Junior Member

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    :salam2: I figured out how to multi-quote!
    No not an ideology but just an interpretation.

    How can you say otherwise? How can you just randomly accept something if it doesn't make sense to you? How do you know it's the truth then?


    I was using my logic, which doesn't appreciate stoning because it's not stated in the Quran as a punishment. I don't understand why you can appreciate a punishment not sanctioned by Allah?

    How do you know you will get paradise in the afterlife if you don't use your logic to verify that this is a correct religion? That doesn't make sense... well it doesn't make sense to me...


    How could our Prophet :saw: tell the future? The Quran states otherwise. (I already provided you with a verse that says otherwise)

    brother, why did you post this? Can you answer please as I am greatly confused...

    Why can't I reject a Hadith if it contradicts with my logic wich i will show? Because I'm not a scholar? Listen brother, My grounds for rejecting Hadith are simple.

    -If the narrator has already narrated a false hadith, I disregard it
    -If it contradicts with the Quran, I disregard it
    -If it contradicts with Muhammad's merciful behaviour, I disregard it
    -If it contradicts with another Hadith, then I see which one is false according to above and disregard it
    -If the 'isnad' has less then 4 narrators, I disregard it


    Why do I have to stand around while our Prophet :saw: is being insulted by these Hadith? Just because I'm not a Hadith scholar? It's the duty for every Muslim to protect our prophet :saw: honour.


    My logic of course. I try and always will try to keep my logic open minded…


    Nope. Let's look at multipule translations of the verse. Remember that adultery is married intercourse and fornification is unmarried intercourse (the other translation is commentary)

    Yusuf Ali: (The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.

    Marmaduke Pickthall: (The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.)

    Mushin Khan: (The woman and the man guilty of illegal sexual intercourse, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not pity withhold you in their case, in a punishment prescribed by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.)

    It doesn't say one or the other. It just says the punishment for illegal intercourse is 100 lashes. Both fornification and adultery are illegeal intercourse so there punishment is 100 lashes.

    Why would they say that even though punishment for Adultery is 100 lashes? Because they like to follow the Hadith over the Quran? Because they think the Hadith can abrogate the Quran? Because they were told by previous scholars? Please explain why...

    The only thing that is preserved in our religion is the Quran. No Hadith. Nothing else.

    Sorry I don't understand what you are trying to convey. The Prophet never wrote down the Hadith for us. Why didn't he if were supposed to follow it? Senseless...

    1) You mean stoning? I prefer to follow the Quran over people who throw stones for no justifiable reason when the real punishment is shown in the Quran...

    2) This is a pretty reasonable offer. There is just no way you can trust Bhukari and Muslim with all there mistakes. (I am going to post more of his errors soon! working on it!)

    3)Why would I ever say such a thing! Allah has promised to save the Quran nothing else! I will never in my life admit that the CREATOR is wrong!

    We only need to follow the Quran and remember that the Hadith is corrupt and when we see each Hadith, we need to take it with a degree of skepticism.

    How have I innovated in the religion? I only followed the punishment in the Quran. Please be so kind to explain how I have innovated when I follow a punishment articulated in the Quran.


    They are refering to the Quran not sunnah. How do I know? Because It states later...

    (Quran 53:3: Nor does he say (aught) of (his own) Desire)
    (Quran 53:3: It is not but a revelation revealed,)
    (Quran 53:5: He was taught by one Mighty in Power,)

    Was our Prophet :saw: actions and sayings taught to him by "one Mighty in Power"?

    I want you to use your own logic to decide if a Hadith is accurate or not. Don't just say Bhukari is accurate because he has a isnad. The other 99% of Hadith he rejected also had a isnad.

    Random side note:
    -don't give Bhukari a infallible status just because he and his students (Muslim and Abu Dawood) said so.
    -don't give Abu Dawood a infallible status just because his student (Al-Nasa'i) said so.
    -don't give Muslim a infallible status just because his student (Tirmidhi) said so.
    -don't give Tirmidhi a infallible status because his student (Ibn Majah) said so.

    Have you noticed? Those are the 6 writers of Sunni Islam's 6 major Hadith collections! All students of the previous writer! So they probably didn't verify each others collections as they claim.


    Nope I do not unless someone can prove to me one of his Hadith are accurate.

    Memorized? No. But I have seen some of his isnad. I believe many of his Hadith are not narrated by 4 people or more (the Quranic standard for proof)
  12. strive-may-i
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    strive-may-i Junior Member

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    Threads topic should continue... rules

    STOP....
    SEPARATE THREAD please.....
  13. Just a Guy
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    Just a Guy Reinventing Myself

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    :salam2:

    I was actually trying to defend Islam, but apparently I was misunderstood, or I may not have explained myself clearly. I apologize for any confusion my previous post may have caused.

    I am familiar with the conquistadores and the Age of Colonization in general. Africa in particular still suffers the effects from centuries of exploitation by European nations.

    I also know of the Reconquista of Iberia from the Muslims.

    It is said that history is written by the winners, because they generally destroy or suppress all knowledge of the losers. A lot of valuable knowledge was lost during the Middle Ages because the Catholic Church hid or destroyed a lot of records that were deemed "heretical" that were written centuries before.
  14. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam walaikum,

    Hello folks...

    You know I was teacher for a many many eons. When a teacher is not able to stick to the topic the students go haywire.

    There are some great ideas floating around on this one. When I was a counselor we used to call this free association.

    I can post a response and write about what is in my kitchen sink.

    Let me ask this what is that people want to discuss?
  15. ShahnazZ
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    ShahnazZ Striving2BeAStranger

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    Brother YusufN, you have yet to address my response as well as Brother Thariq's later response.
  16. MohammedMaksudul
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    MohammedMaksudul May Allah Forgive us

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    :salam2:

    Look at our internet hadith scholar. Subhan Allah, your arrogance knows no limit. You try to use logic, but even then it is faulty. Read brother's tariq's post properly and try to put up a proper refutation if you want to do so. Just addressing a few points incompletely won't prove anything.
  17. Abu Talib
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    Then Allah says:

    (The Zaniyah and the Zani, flog each of them with a hundred stripes.) This honorable Ayah contains the ruling on the law of retaliation for the person who commits illegal sex, and details of the punishment. Such a person will either be unmarried, meaning that he has never been married, or he will be married, meaning that he has had intercourse within the bounds of a lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind. As for the virgin who is unwedded, the prescribed punishment is one hundred stripes, as stated in this Ayah. In addition to this he is to be banished from his homeland for one year, as was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Abu Hurayrah and Zayd bin Khalid Al-Juhani in the Hadith about the two bedouins who came to the Messenger of Allah . One of them said, "O Messenger of Allah, this son of mine was employed by this man, and committed Zina with his wife. I paid a ransom with him on behalf of my son one hundred sheep and a slave-girl, but when I asked the people of knowledge, they said that my son should be given one hundred stripes and banished for a year, and that this man's wife should be stoned to death.'' The Messenger of Allah said:

    (By the One in Whose Hand is my soul, I will judge between you both according to the Book of Allah. Take back the slave-girl and sheep, and your son is to be given one hundred stripes and banished for one year. O Unays -- he said to a man from the tribe of Aslam -- go to this man's wife, and if she confesses, then stone her to death.) Unays went to her and she confessed, so he stoned her to death. This indicates that if the person who is guilty of illegal sex is a virgin and unmarried, he should be banished in addition to being given one hundred stripes. But if married, meaning he has had intercourse within the bounds of lawful marriage, and he is free, adult and of sound mind, then he should be stoned to death. Imam Malik recorded that `Umar, may Allah be pleased with him, stood up and praised and glorified Allah, then he said; "O people! Allah sent Muhammad with the truth, and revealed to him the Book. One of the things that was revealed to him was the Ayah of stoning to death, which we have recited and understood. The Messenger of Allah carried out the punishment of stoning and after him we did so, but I am afraid that as time goes by, some will say that they did not find the Ayah of stoning in the Book of Allah, and they will go astray because they abandoned one of the obligations revealed by Allah. Stoning is something that is prescribed in the Book of Allah for the person -- man or woman -- who commits illegal sex, if he or she is married, if decisive evidence is produced, or if pregnancy results from that, or if they confess to it.'' It was also recorded in the Two Sahihs in the lengthy Hadith of Malik, from which we have quoted briefly only the portion that is relevant to the current discussion.

    http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/ibnkathir/ibnkathir_web/24.35488.html
  18. Aapa
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    Aapa Mirajmom

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    Assalaam walaikum,

    As I wrote earlier the witness is the one who is really tested. The witness is the one who is stating before Allah in this life that they were a witness to the actual act. The witness is saying my eyes witnessed a sexual act. My eyes were present in the same room. And there have to be four witnesses. Think about this.

    Before testifying about the sins of the others the witness has to be 100% sure they are not lying.

    Cast no stone unless you are sin free.
  19. thariq2005
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    thariq2005 Praise be to Allah!

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    Wa `alaykum salaam wa rahmatullaah

    Sorry for being honest- but your last post would be something over which people can laugh, including the post before that... were you even serious when writing that? Sorry, but it was sheer ignorance!

    And btw you never replied to this question of mine:

    I am not going to refute any of your points as you have refuted yourself and exposed your distorted understanding- which will make it clear to people.

    But based on what you said... I would like to ask a few questions

    Does this mean that if a narrator narrated a 'false' hadeeth (according to your logic) you will disregard the narrations of that Narrator? In that case, you will have to disregard all the books of hadeeth (and all the hadeeth in it) my friend.

    Since the religion is based on your logic... do you expect people to understand the religion according to their logic or your logic?

    - If you want them to understand the religion according to their logic- then you can stop expressing your distorted understanding of the religion to people.

    - If you want them to understand the religion according to your logic- please understand that no one wants to follow the understanding of an ignorant person.

    The Prophet :saw2: never wrote down the whole Qur'aan either. So can we start saying that we can throw away verses from the Qur'aan- be warned again... if you say so, you have apostated.

    Please don't make a fool out of yourself again... this is getting embarassing now. I saw how critical you were when you posted your last post.

    Does this mean that we follow only the Qur'aan and not hadeeth? So, you are one of those Quraniyyoon (i.e. those who follow 'only' the Qur'aan). If this is the case, then how do you understand the following:

    1) How much Zakaah does one give from his wealth.

    2) How do you understand this verse: As to those women on whose part you see illconduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, beat them , but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance). Surely, Allah is Ever Most High, Most Great.

    Can I beat up my wife then, since I want to follow the Qur'aan 'only'?

    Explain how you follow the punishment for the thief?


    Please don't post any of your "Bukhaari made mistakes in the following hadeeth" post. Please take time to think carefully and refute all the related posts and then think about posting further.

    Wassalaamu `alaykum

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